—King?

Yes?

The President will be right with you. He’s outside. We’re getting him. Just a moment.

Thank you.

Hello.

Hello?

This is Lyndon Johnson. I had a call—

[Unclear.]

—from you, and I tried to reply to it a couple times, Savannah and different places, and they said you were traveling, [slight chuckle] and I got to traveling last night. [King acknowledges.] Just got down here to meet the prime minister [Lester B. “Mike” Pearson] of Canada this morning.[note 1] Lester B. “Mike” Pearson was a member of the Canadian Parliament in the Liberal Party from October 1948 to April 1968; recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize in 1957; and prime minister of Canada from April 1963 to April 1968. And I had a moment, I thought maybe we better try to—I better try to reply to your call.

Well, I certainly appreciate your returning the call, and I don’t want to take but just a minute or two of your time. First, I want to thank you for that great State of the Union message. It was really a marvelous presentation, and I think we are on the way now towards the Great Society.[note 2] President Johnson had delivered his State of the Union message on 4 January. King was referencing a specific line from the speech.

I’ll tell you what our problem is: We’ve got to try . . . with every force at our command, and I mean every force . . . to get these education bills that go to those people under $2,000 a year income. A billion and a half [dollars], and this poverty [bill] that’s a billion and a half, and this health [bill] that’s going to be 900 million next year right at the bottom. We’ve got to get them passed before the vicious forces concentrate and get them a coalition that can block them. Then we have got to—so we won’t divide them all and get them hung up in a filibuster.[note 3] As with Johnson’s desire to get the tax cut passed before the civil rights bill came up in 1964, he wanted to push forward with much of his major Great Society legislation in 1965 before an anticipated filibuster in the Senate bottled up the agenda. We’ve got to—when we get these big things through that we need, Medicare, Education—I’ve already got that hearing started the 22nd in the House and 26th in the Senate—your people ought to be very, very . . . uh . . . diligent in looking at those committee members that come from urban areas that are friendly to you to see that those bills get reported right out, because you have no idea—it’s shocking to you how much benefits they will get. [King acknowledges.] There’s 8 billion, 500 million [dollars] this year for education, compared to 700 million when I started. So you can imagine . . . you can imagine what effort that’s going to be.

Yes.

And this one bill is a billion and a half. Now, if we can get that and we can get our Medicare—we ought to get that by February—then we get our poverty [bill], that will be more than double what it was last year. Then we’ve got to come up with the . . . qualification of the voters. That will answer 70 percent of your problems.

That’s right.

If you just clear it out everywhere, make it age and read and write. No tests on . . . what [Geoffrey] Chaucer said or [Robert] Browning’s poetry or constitutions or memorizing or anything else.[note 4] Geoffrey Chaucer and Robert Browning were famous British poets.

Yes.

And then you may have to put them in the post office, let the Postmaster—that’s a federal employee that I control who they can say is local. He’s recommended by the congressman, he’s approved by the senator, but if he doesn’t register everybody I can put a new one in.

Yes.

And it’s not an outside, Washington influence. It’s a local man. But they can just all go to the post office like they buy a stamp. Now, I haven’t thought this through, but that’s my general feeling, and I’ve talked to the Attorney General, and I’ve got them working on it. I don’t want to start off with that anymore than I do with 14(b) because I wouldn’t get anything else.[note 5] President Johnson was referring to the labor movement’s desire to eliminate section 14(b) of the Taft-Hartley Act that gave states the authority to enforce anti-union “right to work” provisions.

Yes, yes, yes.

Do you—

[Unclear.]

And I don’t want to publicize it, but I wanted—that’s—I wanted you to know the outline of what I had in mind.

Yes. Well, I remembered you mentioned it to me the other day when we met at the White House, and I’ve been very diligent in not . . . making this statement.

Well, your statement was perfect about the votes—important, very important, and I think it’s good to talk about that, and I just don’t see how anybody can say that a man can fight in Vietnam, but he can’t vote in the post office.

Yes, yes. Well, Mr. President, I’ll tell you, the main thing I wanted to share with you, really grows out of conversations that I have had with all of the civil rights leaders—I mean, the heads of the civil rights organizations—

Yes.

—as well as many people around the country as I have traveled. We have a strong feeling that it would mean so much to, first, the health of our whole democracy, but to the Negro, and to the nation, to have a Negro in the Cabinet. We feel that this would really be a great step forward for the nation, for the Negro, for our international image, and do so much to give many people a lift who need a lift now, and I’m sure it could give a new sense of dignity and self-respect to millions of Negroes who—millions of Negro youth who feel that they don’t have anything to look forward to in life.

I agree with that. I have not publicly shouted from the housetop, but I have had them sit in with me. I—the first move I made was to put one on the [National] Security Council—[note 6] President Johnson had appointed Carl T. Rowan to head the United States Information Agency, which was part of the National Security Council. Later in this conversation, Johnson emphasized, as he had done in numerous calls the previous year, that Rowan’s position was the equivalent of a Cabinet post and that Rowan attended Cabinet meetings.

Yes.

And to put one in charge of every bit of the information that went to all of the 120 nations and take him out of an important ambassador post, and I am trying my best to get the housing and urban and city problems, which is the number one problem in America, as I see it, made into a Cabinet post.[note 7] The Kennedy administration had tried and failed to create a Cabinet agency for urban affairs, but the Johnson administration pushed through the legislation later this year to create the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD). I have a good chance of getting it done, unless I get tied in with the racial thing. I’m going to concentrate all of the executive power I can to get that done. I’m pretty halfway committed to putting in [Robert C. “Bob”] Weaver, who I consider to be a very able administrator and done a good job and who we respect pretty highly, and I—I’m trying to bring in others as assistants and deputies.[note 8] Robert C. “Bob” Weaver was a member of Franklin D. Roosevelt’s Black Cabinet in 1934; director of the Housing and Home Finance Agency from 1961 to 1965; and the first U.S. secretary of the Department of Housing and Urban Development from January 1966 to December 1968. The Johnson administration created the Department of Housing and Urban Development on 9 November 1965, and on 18 January 1966—after a complicated delay—the President swore in Weaver as its first secretary. I talked to them no longer than two hours ago about trying to get one in charge of maybe African Affairs, if [G. Mennen “Soapy”] Williams left.[note 9] G. Mennen “Soapy” Williams was the Democratic governor of Michigan from January 1949 to January 1961; U.S. assistant secretary of state for African affairs from February 1961 to March 1966; U.S. ambassador to the Philippines from June 1968 to April 1969; and a justice of the Michigan Supreme Court from 1970 to 1987. [King acknowledges.] I don’t know whether you know him or not, but I’m just giving him consideration. I don’t want to get it around, but it’s this fellow [George] Carter that runs the African desk for the Peace Corps.[note 10] George Carter was the Peace Corps regional director for North Africa, the Near East, and South Asia until July 1966. “Peace Corps Aide Promoted,” New York Times, 10 August 1966. Another African American staffer named Carter—Chester C. Carter—had left the Peace Corps in 1964 to become deputy chief of protocol in the State Department. “Ex-Aide in Peace Corps Named to Protocol Post,” New York Times, 2 May 1964.

Oh, yes.

Do you know him?

Just—no, I don’t know him well, [unclear].[note 11] King may have said “just the name.”

Well, he’s very, very able. And we’ve got George [L. P.] Weaver over in the Labor Department, and I’m bringing them in just as fast as I can.[note 12] George L. P. Weaver was U.S. assistant secretary of labor from 1961 to 1969. I gave Carl [T.] Rowan the top job [US Information Agency] over—I would guess that eight out of the ten people I talked to felt like that I had problems there, but up to now, he’s—he sits with the Security Council on everything.[note 13] Carl T. Rowan was U.S. deputy assistant secretary of state in 1961; a delegate to the United Nations in 1962; U.S. ambassador to Finland in 1963; and director of the United States Information Agency from 1964 to 1965. He participates just like the Secretary of State, and I’m going to—I don’t want to make a commitment on it, because I don’t want to get tied down with the Congress—but I’m going to shove as strong as I can to get the biggest department there—housing, urban affairs, city, transportation, everything that comes in that department that involves the urban areas of America, into one department—and then if I can get that done, without having to commit one way or the other, my hope would be that I could put the man in there, and probably it would be Weaver, because I think we have more or less a moral obligation to a fellow that’s done—

He’s a [unclear] man.

He’s done a good job, and he hasn’t disappointed anybody. If we put somebody into a job and he fails, we lose three steps when we go ahead one.

Sure.

And I haven’t had any of that, if you’ll notice it.

Uh-huh.

We haven’t had any mistakes or any corruption or any scandals of any kind. And I’ve moved them in, I mean, by the wholesale, the—both women and men.

Yes. Well, this—I—this is very encouraging, and I was—as I said, very concerned about this, and I know how others have been mentioning that what this could mean—this could be another great step for the Great Society.

I have seen where they considered Whitney for—Whitney [M.] Young [Jr.]—for a place with a top job with [R. Sargent] Shriver.[note 14] Whitney M. Young Jr. was executive director of the National Urban League from 1961 to 1971. Young had been urging the passage of a domestic Marshall Plan to address economic inequality. R. Sargent Shriver was director of the Peace Corps from March 1961 to February 1966, and director of the Office of Economic Opportunity from October 1964 to March 1968. He’s running two shows, and maybe as a kind of associate director with Shriver with the poverty group. I thought that ought to get underway a little bit. I don’t know what Shriver’s said about it. I have a very high regard for Whitney. I like him. I don’t feel—I honestly don’t feel that with Roy [O.] Wilkins, or with you, or with [A. Philip] Randolph, or with the man [James L. Farmer Jr.] from CORE [Congress of Racial Equality] that meets with us, I don’t really think I have a moral obligation to any of them like I have to Weaver who has been in there, and it’s kind of like you being assistant pastor of your church for ten years with the understanding of your deacons that you would be—take over, and then you—they lose and they don’t get to make a pastor, and then you continue to carry on, and then finally, when the good day comes, they say, “Well, you get back and sit at the second table.”[note 15] Roy O. Wilkins was executive secretary of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) from 1955 to 1964; executive director of the NAACP from 1965 to 1977; and recipient of the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 1967. A. Philip Randolph was a civil rights leader; president of the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters from 1928 to 1968; and founder and director of the March on Washington in 1941 and 1963. James L. Farmer Jr. was the national director of the Congress of Racial Equality (CORE) in the 1960s. I just don’t feel like saying that to Weaver.

Yes.

Now, Weaver’s not my man. I didn’t bring him in; he’s a Kennedy man. But I just think that there’d be a pretty revolutionary feeling about him. Carl Rowan’s not my man; he’s a Kennedy man. But he’s got the biggest job in government, and it’s a Cabinet job. He sits with the Cabinet, every time. He sits with the Security Council, every time, and I did it the first month I was in office.

Yes.

I don’t throw it around to . . . to cause him to be attacked by his appropriations because the southerners handle him. [John L.] McClellan [D–Arkansas] handles his appropriations.[note 16] John L. McClellan was a U.S. senator [D–Arkansas] from January 1943 to November 1977; chair of the Senate Government Operations Committee from 1949 to 1953 and 1955 to 1972; chair of the Senate Appropriations Committee from 1972 to 1977; and chief sponsor of the Select Committee on Improper Activities in the Labor and Management Field.

Uh-huh.

But after we get by pretty well this year and I can get this reorganization through, why, we’ll not only have people like Weaver and Carter in under secretaries’ places, but we’ll have Rowan head there and we’ll have Weaver and perhaps some other folks on the order of Whitney and whoever y’all think’s good.

Well, we think very highly of Whitney, and—

I do, too.

—[unclear] he can play a role—

I do, too. You know, he’s worked very closely in our Equal Employment.[note 17] The Civil Rights Act had created the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC). Prior to that, the most active response from the White House had been the President’s Committee on Equal Employment Opportunity (PCEEO), one of Johnson’s pet projects as vice president.

Yes.

And he’s done a very good job in about 60 cities where his people have branches—

Uh-huh.

—on employment. And I rather think that . . . that there’s been substantial progress. Not enough, but I rather think there’s been substantial progress with industry on a higher level, don’t you?

I think so. There’s no doubt about it.

Every corporation I talk to—and I talked to about 30 of them yesterday—they are looking for Negroes that can do the job that a George Weaver does or a Carl Rowan does, or a fellow like Weaver does.[note 18] In fact, George Carter, whom Johnson mentioned earlier in this call, left the Peace Corps in July 1966 to join IBM. “Peace Corps Aide Promoted,” New York Times, 10 August 1966. If we have some of them, and if you have some of them, and you get them to Hobart Taylor [Jr.], we can find companies that will use a man of that quality.[note 19] Hobart Taylor Jr. was an African American attorney from Houston, Texas; special counsel to the President’s Committee on Equal Employment Opportunity from April 1961 to August 1965; associate special counsel to the president from April 1964 to August 1965; and director of the Export-Import Bank from August 1965 to January 1968. Then when they get in, they can look after the ones below them like you’re looking after your people.

Well, I think you’re right, and we’re certainly going to continue to work in that area.[note 20] The Presidential Recordings Program revised the following section of text in 2021 for inclusion in The LBJ Telephone Tapes, a project produced by the Miller Center in partnership with the Lyndon B. Johnson Presidential Library to commemorate the library's 50th anniversary.

There’s not going to be anything, though, Doctor . . . as effective . . . as all of them voting.

That’s right. [Unclear]—

That’ll get you a message that all the eloquence in the world won’t bring because the fellow will be coming to you, then, instead of you calling him.

And it’s very interesting, Mr. President, to notice that the only states that you didn’t carry in the South—the five southern states—have less than 40 percent of the Negroes registered to vote. Very interesting to notice that. And I think a professor at the University of Texas, in a recent article, brought this out very clearly, so it demonstrates that it’s so important to get Negroes registered to vote in large numbers in the South. And it would be this coalition of the Negro vote and the moderate White vote that will really make the New South.

That’s exactly right. I think it’s very important that we not say that we’re doing this and we’re not doing [this] just because it’s Negroes or Whites, but we take the position that every person born in this country, when they reach a certain age, that he have a right to vote, just like he has a right to fight, and [slight chuckle] that we just extend it whether it’s a Negro, or whether it’s a Mexican, or who it is. [King acknowledges.] And number two, I think that . . . we don’t want special privilege for anybody. We want equality for all, and we can stand on that principle. But I think that you can contribute a great deal by getting your leaders and you, yourself, taking very simple examples of discrimination where a man’s got to memorize [Henry Wadsworth] Longfellow, or whether he’s got to quote the first ten amendments, or he’s got to tell you what Amendment 15, 16, 17 is, and then ask them if they know and show what happens.[note 21] Henry Wadsworth Longfellow was a famous American poet. And there are some people don’t have to do that, but when a Negro comes in, he’s got to do it. And if we can just repeat and repeat and repeat—I don’t want to follow [Adolf] Hitler, but he had a[n] idea—[note 22] Adolf Hitler was chancellor of Germany from 1933 to 1945, and the leader of the Nazi Party.

Yeah.

—that if you just take a simple thing and repeat it often enough, even if it wasn’t true, why, people accept it. Well, now, this is true. And if you can find the worst condition that you run into in Alabama, Mississippi, or Louisiana, or South Carolina, where—well, I think one of the worst I ever heard of is the president of the school at Tuskegee [Institute], or the head of the Government Department there, or something, being denied the right to cast a vote. And if you just take that one illustration and get it on radio, and get it on television, and get it on . . . in the pulpits, get it in the meetings, get it everyplace you can, pretty soon the fellow that didn’t do anything but follow—drive a tractor, he’ll say, “Well, that’s not right. That’s not fair.”

Yes.

And then that will help us on what we’re going to shove through in the end.

Yes. You’re exactly right about that.

And if we do that, we’ll break through as—it’ll be the greatest breakthrough of anything, not even excepting this ’64 act. I think the greatest achievement of my administration, I think the greatest achievement in foreign policy—I said to a group yesterday—was the passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. But I think this’ll be bigger, because it’ll do things that even that ’64 act couldn’t do.[note 23] End of 2021 revisions.

That’s right. That’s right. [Unclear] right. Well, Mr. President, I certainly appreciate your giving me this time, and I appreciate getting your ideas on these things, but that I just wanted to share it with you, and I wanted you to know that we have the feeling, but we are not set on any particular person. We felt that Bob Weaver, Whitney Young, or Ralph Bunche—somebody like that could—[note 24] Ralph Bunche was a political science professor and chair at Howard University from 1928 to 1950; a longtime official in the State Department and the United Nations who won the 1950 Nobel Peace Prize for his work concerning Palestine and Israel; and U.N. under secretary for special political affairs from 1955 to 1967; and U.N. under secretary general from 1968 to 1971.

Every one of those—every one of those people have my respect, and what you do is this: you just say to them that I’m not going to send a message to the Congress and say that “if you will give me this power, I will do this as a trade” because I think that would do us all damage. But if I can get my Urban and Housing Affairs, you know what my intentions are.

Yes.

And I’ve got a pretty good Cabinet. As far as I know, I’m going to keep them all probably, except maybe the Secretary of the Treasury.[note 25] C. Douglas Dillon resigned as secretary of the treasury in April 1965. Henry “Joe” Fowler replaced him. Perhaps, I don’t know what’s going to happen to the Attorney General. I’ve given a good deal of thought to folks like [Abraham] Abe Fortas, a good deal of thought to folks like Clark [M.] Clifford, a good deal of thought to [Nicholas “Nick”] Katzenbach, a good deal of thought to . . . all of those folks are pretty liberal, and they’re right on our question.[note 26] Robert F. Kennedy resigned as attorney general to run for U.S. Senate in New York. Abraham “Abe” Fortas was an associate justice on the U.S. Supreme Court from 1965 to 1969, and a longtime friend and adviser to Lyndon Johnson. Nicholas “Nick” Katzenbach was U.S. assistant attorney general from 1961 to 1962; U.S. deputy attorney general from April 1962 to January 1965; acting U.S. attorney general from September 1964 to January 1965; U.S. attorney general from February 1965 to October 1966; and U.S. under secretary of state from October 1966 to January 1969. I’ve appointed John [A.] Doar in charge of the department [Civil Rights Division] over there.[note 27] John A. Doar was a key attorney and local liaison in the Civil Rights Division of the U.S. Department of Justice, and U.S. assistant attorney general for civil rights from 1965 to 1967. But I think most of the others are planning to stay.[note 28] Burke Marshall left his position as assistant attorney general for civil rights a month earlier. And I need them on these big programs—Health, and Education, and Defense, and State, but the one thing we want to do is shove through our housing reorganization—

Mm-hmm.

—and put them in charge of the cities.

Yes.

Then New York City’s got to come, sit down and talk to these people. Chicago’s got to come. New Orleans’s got to come. Atlanta’s got to come. If they don’t, they just can’t move.

Yes.

And then I think we’ll have a good man that’s trained, that’s come up through the ranks, that’s merit, that’s not on account of color, not on account of anything else, but he’ll be there.

Yes. Well . . . well, this is wonderful. And I certainly appreciate your—

But two things you do for us now: You find the most ridiculous illustration you can on voting, and point it up, and repeat it, and get everybody else to. Second thing is please look at that Labor Committee in the House and the Senate. Please look at that Health Committee. Please look at that Immigration Committee. And let’s us try to get health and education and poverty through the first 90 days.

Yes. Well, we’re going to be doing that. You can depend on our absolute support.

Whitney’s group can go to talking to them, and Roy’s group can, and your group can, and they ought to tell the [William Fitts] Ryan of New York [D–New York], and they ought to tell so-and-so from Philadelphia, and they ought to tell so-and-so from Atlanta, “Please get this bill reported.”[note 29] William Fitts Ryan was a U.S. representative [D–New York] from January 1961 to September 1972. On 23 June 1964, Ryan had irritated Johnson by accompanying to the White House the parents of two missing civil rights workers in the Mississippi Burning case.

Yes.

Because I don’t think you have any conception of the proportion of assistance that comes to your people in these bills. I haven’t pointed that out. I haven’t stressed it.

Yes. Well, I know they will be—they have been and will be a [unclear] and—

You can figure out, though, what $8 billion in education and what $1 billion in health and what a billion and a half [dollars] in poverty would do if it goes to people who earn less than $2,000 a year.

Mm-hmm.

Now, do you know who earns less than 2,000, don’t you?

That’s right. [President Johnson chuckles.] Yes, sir. But it will certainly be a great movement. We’ve just got to work harder [unclear].

And I’m a part of this administration, but we talked about what we’re going to do [for] three years, and we had to do it the fourth. We passed 51 bills last year. Now, I’ve got those messages up there, the first time any president by January the 15th has ever had a half a dozen messages for the Congress. Most of them don’t even have their State of the Union till after the inauguration.

[Chuckles slightly.] Yeah, that’s right.

But they’re there, and they’re ready for them to go to work, and we’re not just going to talk. If they’ll vote, I’m ready. We’ve got our recommendations, and we talked the first three years of our administration. We promised, and we held it up, and people were getting to be pretty disillusioned, I think, when I finally beat the Rules Committee and got civil rights [bill] out.[note 30] The threat of a likely successful discharge petition forced House Rules Committee chair Howard “Judge” Smith [D–Virginia] to allow his committee to take up the civil rights bill on 9 January 1964. President Johnson had been working closely with his chief legislative liaison, Lawrence F. “Larry” O’Brien Jr., to tabulate support for that petition. The civil rights bill made it to the floor and, on 10 February, passed the House.

Yeah. Yeah, I know.

I think that you might have had a lot more revolution in this country than you could handle if we had had that civil rights [bill] stay in that Rules Committee under [Howard] Judge Smith [D–Virginia].[note 31] Howard “Judge” Smith was a U.S. representative [D–Virginia] from March 1931 to January 1967, and chair of the House Rules Committee from January 1955 to January 1967.

That’s right. Oh, that’s . . . that’s such a disillusioning, but serious—

Well, we talked about it three years, you know. But we just did something about it. So that’s what we got to do now, and you get in here and help us.

Well, I certainly will. You know you can always count on that.

Thank you so much.

All right. God bless you. Thank you, Mr. President.

Bye. Bye.

Operator.

Hello.

Yes, ma’am.

Are you clear?

Thank you.

Thank you. Bye.