Hello?

Secretary [William P.] Rogers, Mr.[note 1] William P. Rogers was secretary of state, January 1969 to September 1973.—

Hello.

Hello, Mr. President.

I [was] just thinking that the Vice President [Spiro T. Agnew] is really tender about the press, isn’t he?[note 2] Spiro T. Agnew was vice president of the United States, January 1969 to October 1973. You know, he’s—[Rogers acknowledges] he’s really, really—Are you where you can talk?

Yes, I am. [with President Nixon acknowledging] He was really depressed.

Yeah. Well, damn it, he should be. Except, Bill, [unclear] he brought a lot of this on himself, you know.

I know.

We—I’m just sitting here talking with [H. R.] Bob Haldeman—and we looked at the situation and here’s really what happened: You know, first of all, of course it was a substantive trip as much as it could be, but he wanted to take it, you know.[note 3] H. R. “Bob” Haldeman was White House chief of staff, January 1969 to April 1973. But there wasn’t a hell of a lot of substance in any of those places, but he wanted to take it. So that was fine. Second, he did the substance fine, but the point is that when I—and I don’t use myself as an example, but it shows you that anybody could do the same thing—when I took my trips in ‘53 and other times, they were substantive to the same extent his was and doesn’t mean a hell of a lot—less actually, as a matter of fact. But the point was that I knew that we couldn’t give any news out of the conversations, so I deliberately went out. I mean, you remember he made the point that he, well, he wasn’t going to go out and, you know, and visit factories and shipyards, [Rogers acknowledges] and so forth, but he should.

Yeah.

He should, you know, because that gives the press something to write about—meeting the people, goodwilling, and all that sort of thing. So what we have to do is to react and say, well, it’s substance and, therefore, he’s not going to do that. The third point, though, was this: that, in addition to that, he aggravated the whole damn thing by not only refusing—he wouldn’t talk to the press—but then he said he was too busy seeing people, but then he played golf every damn day.

Every day.

Every day! Now, you know what I mean, I’m no—I don’t—every guy’s got to judge his own, but he’s brought a lot of this on himself. [speaking over Rogers] I just felt . . . and you can’t blame the press for that statement about Africans, you know, and Africans and the Americans and so forth. So—but I knew he was sensitive as hell, but I guess—I think—

[Unclear.] You know, he needs somebody who’s giving him better advice. You know damn well if you go and play golf 11 times in a trip like that, [President Nixon acknowledges] you can get away with it maybe once or twice, but—

Oh, he played, was it 11 times?

Eleven times.

Well, you had two more than Haldeman had. He said nine. [Rogers acknowledges.] Eleven, no, it is 11. That’s right. No, this is nine out in Africa, I think, in the last—since he got—reached there.

And—

And in most godforsaken places. They weren’t even good golf courses. [Rogers laughs.] No, no—

Well, I think you can get away with golf a couple of times.

I think so, too.

But—and particularly if you play with—

On a weekend or something.

Yeah. I played once with the foreign minister of Japan and that made a big hit in Japan.

Oh!

Christ, there were stories all over the place about it.

Look, I think it’s actually good to do something, you know? [Rogers attempts to interject.] Something that shows—like, for example, I went to the Taj Mahal.

Yeah, that’s—

But, what the hell? You got to go to the Taj Mahal, you know. It was a wonderful sightseeing experience. And—

Well, actually, Mr. President, this trip was much too long anyway.

Yeah.

Your man shouldn’t be out of the country 30 days.

Well, he was gone 30 days and particularly when he didn’t have a hell of a lot to do. But believe me, as you know, we scrape like hell to try to find countries to go to and—

Mm-hmm.

It wasn’t easy.

I know it.

It wasn’t easy. But did you—we—I think we held his hand well enough [unclear].

Yes, I think so. I—

But—

I really feel a little bit sorry for him.

I do, too.

Because he needs—

Because he has gotten a bad—But I’ll tell you what I think: Haldeman feels [unclear]. He says that he will not listen to his staff.

Is that right?

No, sir. He will not listen. That’s really the case.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Just a second; let Bob tell you on the phone about this. [Unclear.]

Hi.

Hi, Bob.

Well, we were just talking about the staff problem where he . . . we’ve got—he’s got a couple guys on there who know something about the strategy of scheduling and all that.

Mm-hmm.

But what—and, of course, Bryce [N.] Harlow was with him the first part of the trip and has spent a lot of time counseling him on how to go at this.[note 4] Bryce N. Harlow was special assistant to the president for congressional affairs, 1969–1970; and counselor to the president, 1970–1971 and June 1973–August 1974. But what he does is he listens to his Secret Service men over anybody else.

My God.

And they, naturally, you know, what they want him to do is stay in a cocoon someplace where nobody can shoot him.

Yeah.

And so he does.

Well, it really—it’s sort of too bad. I think this is, you know, was one that’s going to be tough for him to make a comeback.

Yep.

Because it looked as if it was just sort of lazy.

Yep. Well, that’s—the thing is, even if he were going to play golf everyday, if he had a guy scheduling him right, if he had stopped at an orphanage on the way to the golf course—

Yeah.

—and patted some kids and said he was glad that U.S. foreign aid was helping to keep this orphanage going, or [Rogers acknowledges] something, you know, and then went to the golf course, at least the press would have a story. The problem here is they programmed him in such a way that the traveling press had no story to write. So they had to make up some dirty thing and kick him in the balls every day—

Right. And, of course—

—which they would’ve done anyway. But at least if they’d given him something, they would’ve had that to write, too.

Some of the golfing partners—you know, he had friends from Baltimore, or had Frank Sinatra come over to play golf with him[note 5] Frank Sinatra was an actor and singer.—

Yeah.

—things like that.

Yeah.

No, if you play with a—first place, I don’t think it’s a good idea to play very often. I mean, I think you can get away with it once or twice—

No, but he played with King Hassan [II].[note 6] King Hassan II ruled Morocco from 1961 to 1999. Now, that’s all right.

That’s fine.

But you’re right—play with—go to Portugal to play golf with Frank Sinatra is ridiculous.

Yeah. And that type of thing—well, you shouldn’t play that much anyway. You can get away with it two or three times, four times—

Yeah.

—but not 11. That’s too much. It looks as if that’s what you’re doing.

Yeah, yeah. That’s more than [Arnold] Arnie Palmer does in a month’s tour, probably.[note 7] Arnold Palmer was a professional golfer. [Chuckles.]

Yeah. It just, you know, it creates the wrong impression.

Yeah.

But . . . and because he didn’t say anything at all to the press, as you say, they had nothing to write about.

He left a void, so they filled it.

That’s right.

And they’re bound to.

I felt sorry. I really felt sorry for him, because he—

Well, it is too bad, but it—he’s a victim of his own . . .

Yeah.

You know, he doesn’t get a good guy who—anybody like that, as the President has always recognized, has got to have somebody else schedule him. You can’t schedule yourself.

That’s right.

And he won’t do that. He won’t listen to what other people think he ought to do.

Yeah. I think—

Including any of us.

—what I always do is I have somebody else help me, and then I go over it pretty damn carefully to see—

Make sure they—

Taking the Middle East, what they did do is they had me overprotected. I wasn’t doing anything. [with Haldeman acknowledging] I was having meetings. But I said, “I can’t go to that area without seeing a hell of a lot. I’ve got to physically see things.”

Get out and do it. That’s right, which you did.

Well, it’s too bad, but I don’t . . . he was very happy with the help he had. I mean, he didn’t complain about—

Was he?

Yeah.

Good.

I mean, Henry [A. Kissinger] had a man and I had a man, and he thought they were both great.[note 8] Henry A. Kissinger was national security adviser, January 1969 to November 1975; and secretary of state, September 1973 to January 1977.

Hmm! [Unclear.]—

So it’s too bad—

Wonderful.

Well, don’t have the President worry about this.

OK.

We can help some on this thing, I think.

Here. He wants to talk to you again.

OK.

Yeah, I didn’t want to burden you with it except to say that you—to show you how the thing—the—his press really—we didn’t want to seem—has been terrible, you know?

Yeah.

It’s just been terrible and I don’t read it carefully and neither do you.

Well, I [unclear]—

We—well, you maybe have, but—

I read it very carefully.

And it’s terrible, and Bill, look, your trips, for Christ’s sakes, they’ve been—[Rogers acknowledges] of course, you know how to handle the press, but—and you’ve had some substances, the more substance. But my point is you’ve done a lot of public things, too, and your wife did public things. Now, when [Thelma C.] Pat [Nixon] and I took our trips, you remember—well, of course, the Latin American trip was—[chuckling] made news in any event—but they were all enormous successes.[note 9] Thelma C. “Pat” Nixon was first lady of the United States, January 1969 to August 1974. We just—despite the fact that, hell, I had as many enemies as Agnew, and maybe more.

That’s right.

You remember?

I know.

But boy, we worked our butts off. We used to work 14 hours a day.

You have to [President Nixon acknowledges] on these trips.

And we used to go out and we’d go to the—my God, I visited, you know, the—you go to the USIA [United States Information Agency] thing. You go to the University of Purdue research station. Good God, and Pat went to the leper colony in Panama and, you know.

Mm-hmm.

And that’s the sort of thing that people love.

You have to do it.

And for a vice president, goddamn it, it’s about all he can do. He isn’t going to make any of these—isn’t going to be any—We can talk all we want about substance, but they know that’s a bunch of crap. And the other thing is that I think the . . . I think, though, that as far as the president, to show how deeply that it sunk in here, there were some on my staff that—on our staff here that didn’t want, you know, us to put anything on. We asked you to go out there, and I deliberately, you know I came out to the car and the rest [Rogers acknowledges] for that very reason. But we can’t just let him take a totally bad rap, but he’s brought a lot of it on himself.

He sure did.

And I just—I don’t know, I mean, I don’t know what we can do, except—[speaking over Rogers] What do you think? Just hold his hand a little more, or what?

That’s all you can do. I don’t think there’s anything you can do here now.

Yeah. But you see the problem, Bill, is his attitude toward the press now is so negative—

That’s right.

—that he refused, I understand, to talk to the guys on the trip.

Mm-hmm.

Well, now, goddamn it, you can’t do that!

I know.

I mean, you—

Well, I don’t understand why he doesn’t learn from you because nobody ever got a worse rap from the press than you did and nobody had [with President Nixon acknowledging] a rougher split, and you made a comeback, and did it the right way, and they respect you for it.

I got a—I never had any friends in the press, you know. I mean, any political friends. I had personal friends, but never any political friends. But on my trips, my God, I got a good press.

That’s right.

It’s almost impossible not to get a good press on a trip, mainly because of this: the press sort of is with you, because, you know, you’re America over there and they want you to do well. That’s really true, don’t you think so?

Right. [with President Nixon acknowledging] I’ll tell you another thing I found, and I know you did on your trips—I sort of emulated you and that is, that if you work hard as hell, they respect you ‘cause you wear them out. On the Middle East trip, I don’t know whether you saw the stories or not, but the end of the thing, I got high marks for just physical endurance.

That’s right.

And they were all saying, “Christ, he works [unclear].”

Absolutely, I saw that. I saw that. As a matter of fact, I remarked to Pat about it. That awful thing we went through, that 73-day trip, you know.

Yeah, yeah.

But it was one of the greatest endurance tests in all history, and goddamn near killed both of us. [Rogers attempts to interject.] But it made a reputation that never left us.

That’s right.

And you know—

The press respects you for that.

Yeah.

But, you know—now, here’s 30 days he—

Thirty days.

Thirty-one [unclear].

And the golf, but it—not only the golf, but, Jesus, a week . . . [Rogers acknowledges] a weekend here. And the thing is, Bob was just saying that this kind of a reputation will never leave him.

It’s awfully—

Every time now he goes out to play golf, they’re going to notice it.

That’s right.

He doesn’t—he could’ve played once or twice but, you know, you can always take it up, but I just don’t know. It’s just goddamn stupidity, particularly, Bill, when we were trying to help him by sending him on the trip.

Yeah.

That’s what irritates me, I—you know what I mean?

Is that right? He really wanted to go himself, huh?

Oh, for Christ’s sakes, he came in! He said, “I’d like to take a trip,” you know.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, what—this was not a particularly good time to go, for a variety of reasons, as you know. I didn’t want him running around over there. And he says, “I’d like to go.” And that’s why we sent him to Korea, you know. I says, “Well, [Rogers acknowledges] we got to find some place.” So, that’s why the Korean thing came up. No, he wanted to take the trip. Actually, the way it all grew up, he wanted to go to Greece. [Rogers laughs.] Well, goddamn it, we couldn’t go to Greece. And so I put Henry on him. I says, “Now, for God’s sakes, talk him out of that.”

Yeah.

Then, of course, the [laughs] irony was that after he [unclear]—after we set up the trip, he said he’d like to—wondered if maybe he shouldn’t maybe try to see if he could go over to Peking from Korea. Well, hell [Rogers chuckles] you know, that’s ridiculous. But that’s all right. I understand everybody’s interest in doing that. But the whole thing was his idea.

Yeah.

And then we went to work and your people helped and—

Yeah, I had thought it was all right for him to go back to Korea [President Nixon acknowledges] ‘cause he had a good rapport with Park [Chung Hee] and[note 10] Park Chung Hee was president of South Korea, 1962–1979.—

And we picked countries where it was useful or he hadn’t been before. But I must say, it’s . . . it really is tough. But it was good of you to go out to meet him. And, you know, another thing I was going to say in terms of what—of how we treat vice presidents around here, you know, and I think this was, incidentally, exactly correct and I don’t complain about it at all: Did you know that the only—that in all of my trips abroad that I took as vice president, a half a dozen, I was never met by anybody but an assistant secretary of state?

Is that right?

Oh, [John Foster] Dulles never came to the airport.[note 11] John Foster Dulles was secretary of state, 1953–1959. Neither did [Christian A.] Herter.[note 12] Christian A. Herter was secretary of state, 1959–1961. Except when I went to Latin America and came back from there. And then, of course, [Dwight D.] Eisenhower came out.[note 13] Dwight D. Eisenhower was president of the United States, 1953–1961.

Yeah.

But when I came back from that around-the-world trip, 73 days, Walter Robertson met me.[note 14] Walter Robertson was assistant secretary of state for far eastern affairs, 1953–1959.

[Chuckles.]

And I frankly didn’t expect anything else. But, you know, they didn’t do things in those days but, [Rogers acknowledges] you know, now it’s upgraded. When I went to Latin America, why, the . . . well, I had the assistant secretary with me. But this business, you know, we’re really going overboard on meeting him and everything. It’s . . . we want to. But it’s a tough one.

This is too bad. I . . . funny, you and I think so much alike, I had told my people I was going to meet him even before the—

Yeah. Yeah.

—I got your call because you could tell he’s really depressed now.

Sure, sure.

And we got to keep him bolstered up a little bit.

Oh, absolutely.

I think we can do it, but I . . . he really—this one is bad. I mean, the other things you can [President Nixon acknowledges] sort of get over. But the constant fighting with the press, making—

He’s got to cut it out.

—making [unclear] remarks about the [President Nixon acknowledges] Africans. So that’s [unclear]—how does that get [unclear]?

Well, Bill, there’s another thing, too. On the China thing, of course, he should’ve said, “Great.” You know what I mean?

Sure.

Because—And also, right now with the press—well, it isn’t [unclear]. We have a grudging respect from these guys in the foreign policy field.

[chuckling] Damn right we do.

And they’re a little scared.

You’re damn right we do! [laughing]

You know. And if we get a break in the Mid[dle] East or Berlin or [Rogers acknowledges] who knows? There are a lot of things can happen, but they . . . Well, anyway, we’ll not worry too much about it except that it just—I just felt, you know, we’re all so goddamn busy. I was down there in the Senate today and I just felt, well, here he comes back and we worked our tails off to setting the thing up, and the poor guy, we spent all of our time trying to hold his hand.

I know. Don’t worry about it. I’ll try to go out of my way to be nice to him.

Well, you did; you did. But I wanted you to know the background, that actually we worked our tails off trying to work that schedule up and your people [Rogers acknowledges] did and—

See our people really—

—he would not listen.

—they broke their necks trying to be nice to him.

I know. Well, at least—but he just wouldn’t listen. That was all.

I think that’s it. You know, that preoccupation of fighting the press all the time. Geez, you can’t win. It’s a losing battle.

[speaking over Rogers] The point is to fight them, but don’t appear to be doing it.

I know it.

That’s his problem. He just—he wears it on his sleeve.

I know it. The first time I thought it was good, you know? [with Nixon acknowledging] The attacks he made, and that sort of sobered him up a little bit.

But now he’s—

But now it’s sort of a paranoia with him.

Yeah. That’s right.

You can’t win on that one.

Never, never.

Yeah. Well—

OK.

OK, Mr. President. Bye.

Fine.