. . . haltingly.

Yes.

But I saw a friend of yours out at Chancellor [Ludwig] Erhard’s barbecue. He went back and nearly cried and gave me a letter. It said, “When in doubt, follow Walker Stone.” So I want you to know that you’re carrying a heavier burden than you thought and a more awesome responsibility than [Stone chuckles] you’ve ever had. He said, “Now, I thought you had good enough judgment to have a friend around you that had some sense,” but said, “I couldn’t tell whether you really respected him that much or not, because Roy Howard’s there, and he does all the talking whenever he’s there.”[note 2] Howard was chairman of the executive committee and director of the Scripps Howard newspapers. Dobie wrote in his letter that “the time I saw you with him [Walker Stone][,] Roy Howard was on hand. Nobody else usually gets to talk around Roy Howard.” Dobie to President Johnson, 29 December 1963, ibid. Said, “I just want to be sure that you are a listening type.” The man was Dr. Frank Dobie. [Both laugh.]

But it was the damndest letter that you every read. He came to this Chancellor Erhard meeting. . . . And we put on what you would call in my country a real shindig. I’m sending your friend George Carmack, who’s not a Johnson man, as you must have observed with your years.[note 3] George Carmack was editor of the Houston Press and part of the Scripps Howard newspaper alliance.

He’s coming around.

But you ought to recopy this in every Scripps Howard newspaper in America. It’s better than this [unclear] story of North American Newspaper Alliance—Houston Harte’s—but it’s the best damn story that I ever read that George Carmack wrote.[note 4] In late December, Houston Harte, of San Angelo, Texas, had written two fawning pieces about Johnson: one a biographical column, the other a story about the Erhard visit. I’ll send it to you this afternoon for you to read and enjoy anyway, even if you won’t publish it.

Old man Dobie came up, sitting there with Carmack, and had this letter all typed out himself—I don’t guess he got a stenographer. He says that “I just want to tell you that you’re going to have awesome responsibilities and dangerous decisions, heavy burdens, and I feel for you, and I’ll do anything I can. But I’m up in years.[note 5] Dobie was 75 years old. In July 1964, Johnson would award him a Medal of Freedom. Two months later, Dobie passed away. See Lady Bird Johnson, A White House Diary (New York: Holt, Rinehart & Winston, 1970), pp. 123–25; and “Dobie, Frank” folder, White House Central Files: Name File, Lyndon B. Johnson Library. But the best man in your vicinity that I’ve ever seen around you—and the clearest thinker—is Walker Stone.”

I said, “I wanted to see if you had that opinion of him, but I never could tell. Because you was listening to Roy,” and said, “when Roy is there, he’s always doing the talking.” [Both laugh heartily.] But said, “I want to enjoin you to please listen to him.” So I’m calling up now and telling you that I hereby submit to your entreaties, and any instructions you’ve got, I will carefully follow them.[note 6] The Presidential Recordings Program revised the following section of text in 2021 for inclusion in The LBJ Telephone Tapes, a project produced by the Miller Center in partnership with the Lyndon B. Johnson Presidential Library to commemorate the library's 50th anniversary.

All right, will you listen for just a minute?

[chuckling] Sure.

By God, now you asked for it, I tell you.

Well, I want it.

You’re outpacing. You’re racing your motor, Lyndon. You, goddamn it—

[laughing] I’m [unclear].

—you’ve got this thing in the bag.

I’m just enjoying my friends.

They can’t possibly beat you, but I’ll tell you what you’re doing: you are trying to do too much.

No, I’m not.

You are—

No, I’m not. You know all I’ve done? I worked on the budget—

All right. Hey . . .

—and I—

Listen to me. Now, you promised to listen to me. Old Dobie asked you to.

[laughing] Well, I’m like Roy [W.] Howard.

[laughing] Yeah, you are.

At least like he said he was. Go ahead. [Both laugh.]

You’re trying to do too much, and you’re racing your motor, and you’re drinking too much, and you’re not sleeping enough.

Oh, now, listen. Listen there, my friend, [Stone chuckles] all that’s wrong. I’ll tell you what I’m doing: I had a quiet morning. I didn’t come to the office until—I waked up at 6:30. All my life I waked up on a road gang, and I can’t—goddamn it, you get up early, don’t you? You had to, to get through Oklahoma. You can’t tell me you ever made the big leagues not getting up early. It takes us a little longer than some other folks. And I get up early, and I read all the papers. I read about 15 of them. But I read them in bed. And I’m relaxing. I drink my tea, and [Stone chuckles] go to the bathroom, and watch the television. And then, this morning, I want to tell you: this stuff’s got around town, and my friends are really worried.[note 7] Johnson’s health had been a serious concern of both friends and foes since he suffered a massive heart attack in the summer of 1955. For the reminiscences of Johnson’s chief physicians, see “Reflections of J. Willis Hurst, M.D.,” and “Reflection of James C. Cain, M.D.” in LBJ: To Know Him Better, ed. Cain Hurst, Robert L. Hardesty, and Ted Gittinger (Austin, TX: LBJ Foundation, 1995), pp. 1–21. Now, I want to tell you why.

I never enjoyed life more, never felt better in my life, physically, than I do now. At 12:45 today, I took Jack Valenti, Walter Jenkins, Bill Moyer[s], and I swam the length of that pool eight times. Eight times today. [Stone acknowledges.] I went down and had a hamburger. I came back and looked over my State of the Union [address], called up and fussed at a fellow about 40 million dollars too much in a budget, then stretched out and took a little doze—lost consciousness for about five minutes—on my couch.[note 8] Johnson was likely referring to the preceding conversation with Robert McNamara. [I] came back, and they said, “Now, are you in a good humor?” I said, “Yeah.” [They] said, “We’ll save you this until you’re in a bad humor.” And I said, “What is it?” [They] said, “It’s George Carmack’s article.” [They] said, “We want to give it to you when you’re in a bad humor.”

Well, I knew it was going to be bad, if it’s George’s. [Stone laughs softly.] And I read it. And he said that “they always say that folks are not true to their raising. But Johnson is true to his raising.” And he wrote the kindest, sweetest, nicest description. I’m going to send it to Dean Rusk and McGeorge Bundy and all these sophisticated fellows. Angier Biddle Duke.[note 9] Duke was chief of protocol for the State Department and a member of the socially prominent Duke family of North Carolina. He even compliments Angier Biddle Duke.

Yeah.

I want you to read it. And—

I’ll catch it—

—then I read Old Man Dobie’s letter. And the funny thing was, Houston Harte wrote about like George Carmack did for all of his papers. The North American Newspaper Alliance used it. [Stone acknowledges.] But he said, “If there’s ever a place where Angier Biddle Duke, the proper chief of protocol, was not needed, it was Stonewall, Texas.” [Both laugh heartily.]

So I thought you would pass. So I’m really—then, I’m going over, and I’m going to bed early. You know, I don’t have anything to do at night. I can’t go out. I broke out twice. What I do is I go home, and I have myself two or three highballs with my wife. And I have to sit there and read and work. I’ve got Indonesia; they wanted me to give them 35 million [dollars] the other day, and I had to read on it till two o’clock in the morning. They came in, and I had to have India 65 [million dollars], and I read on it till two [o’clock] and turned both of them down. But I just thought, “What if I hadn’t had the desire to read them? I’d be in a hell of a shape.”[note 10] The situation in India became even more complicated because Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru suffered a stroke this day. FRUS, 1964–1968, 25:1.[note 11] End of 2021 revisions.

But, I’ve got my State of the Union. I’ve got one that suits you. It won’t suit you and Harry Byrd in every respect, but it will in dollars. Kennedy had a 98.8 [billion dollar] budget, and he’s been adding 5 billion a year. I guarantee you I didn’t add 5 billion. I may add a little, but not 5 billion. I’ve got less employees than the Defense Department’s had in 15 years. I’ve got less total employees this year than I had last year. Kennedy added 135,000, and I’ve added none. I just told the chief of civil service that.[note 12] John W. Macy, Jr., was the chairman of the U.S. Civil Service Commission. Johnson had spoken to him a few minutes earlier.

So far as prudence and frugality is concerned, you’ll like it. You won’t like my poverty. I’m going to try to teach these nigras that don’t know anything how to work for themselves, instead of just breeding.[note 13] The colloquial spelling of nigras here was a decision made by the editors. Johnson typically used the term Negroes when referencing African Americans, and he usually pronounced the term with a long e sound and a long o sound. In a few instances in January, however, he engaged a more colloquial pronunciation with a short i or e sound and a short a at the end. Other instances where the editors decided that Johnson’s pronunciation mandated the term nigra instead of Negro occurred in the following conversations: between President Johnson and Eugene McCarthy, 6 January 1964; President Johnson and Joseph Rauh, 7 January 1964; and between President Johnson and John McClellan, 16 January 1964, all in this volume.

[Unclear.]

I’m going to try to teach these Mexicans [that] can’t talk English to learn it, so they can work for themselves. I’m going to try to build a road in eastern Kentucky and northern West Virginia and a few of these places so they can get down and go to school, and get off of our taxpayers’ back, and so forth. And that I’m going to call poverty.

But the liberals are already after me. The Washington Post this morning has got a story that says that Johnson’s going to cut so much in the budget, that by not adding this extra 5 or 7 billion [dollars], we’ll have a depression.[note 14] In the Business section, Harvey Segal argued for a more realistic budget in the range of $103 billion to $104 billion. Harvey H. Segal, “Johnson’s Big Budgetary Gamble,” Washington Post, 6 January 1964.

Yeah.

And [Arthur] Schlesinger’s going to resign on me. [sarcastically] That’s really going to make me die. I don’t know how I’m ever going to save that. [Stone laughs.] But I’ve got to have help from you and old man Dobie.

You got it; you got it.[note 15] The Presidential Recordings Program revised the following section of text in 2021 for inclusion in The LBJ Telephone Tapes, a project produced by the Miller Center in partnership with the Lyndon B. Johnson Presidential Library to commemorate the library's 50th anniversary.

But don’t you think I’m overdoing it. If I am, I’ll just come out—first time I feel real good and tired and feel like I’m overdoing it, I’ll call you and let you come over here and judge it, sit around in the evening. But Lady Bird [Johnson] and I—it’s not like you were in the Senate, where you got a hundred people around you every night—we don’t do that. We—I had a lunch today with Walter Jenkins, and I was rather lonely. And I had a nice little rest. So don’t you worry about me. And I’ll guarantee to be more careful, anyway.

Well that’s—Listen, there isn’t anything—you’ve made the goddamndest impact on this country imaginable.

Well, you just watch my—

You’ve done everything right, except watch yourself.

You just watch my budget message.[note 16] End of 2021 revisions.

[to aide] Here, you want to take this?

I know I’m going to like it.

[to aide] Or is this the late one [unclear].

[to Stone] OK. Good-bye.

I’ll support you on poverty, too.

Thank you, my friend. God bless you.

Thank you, Mr. President.