. . . good idea for him to say that he wasn’t an applicant, that he understood that the President was looking for somebody outside of New York City. He wanted somebody in the West that had some judicious experience—

Let me go back over that. Wanted somebody outside of New York City.

Yeah, for the Securities . . .

That’s right: Securities and Exchange Commission?

That’s right. And he wanted, preferred someone from the West.

And somebody from the West.

And he wanted someone that had legislative experience.

Legislative and judicial experience.

And judicial experience.

And a good legal background.

And that he didn’t know anything about it until the FBI started investigating it. The FBI made a very thorough check. Now, I’ve got the FBI report in front of me and it’s a perfect report. There’s not one critical thing.

Yeah, [unclear] a goddamn thing. This is a good man, Mr. President.

Now, let me tell you, Frank Church says . . . now write this down. I just—this is confidential, but you can use it. Frank Church says he’s known [Hamer] Budge for many years. They’re on opposite sides of the fence, but Budge enjoys, quote,“an excellent reputation in the state of Idaho.” He has never heard anything of a derogatory nature concerning his character, his loyalty, or his associates.

That’s right.

Now, [Leonard] Jordan is a Republican senator. I’ve never talked to him, but he says the same thing. I won’t go over it. [Ralph] Harding says—he’s one of those sons of bitches that stirred up a lot of this—that he has known Budge [reading]“since ’60 when he defeated him in an election to the office, that although he disagrees with Budge as far as their political beliefs are concerned, he considers Mr. Budge a personal friend who is an exceptionally fine man. He stated that Mr. Budge’s integrity, character, reputation, loyalty, and associates are above question, and he recommended him for a position of trust and responsibility.” Now, that’s the man that defeated him.

Yes.

Compton I. White: He said that he does not know him but by reputation and he is a high-type, professional man of excellent personal habit.

Yes.

Then Frank Bow.

Just a good man.

[with Halleck acknowledging throughout] Then Earl B. Smith, justice; John Rhodes, William Springer, [E. L.] Tic Forrester, William Tuck, John B. Williams, 13 other associates: [reading]“all of these advise that he’s a loyal American whose character, reputation, associates are above question.[note 2] John J. Rhodes was a Republican representative from Arizona; William L. Springer was a Republican representative from Illinois; E. L. “Tic” Forrester was a Democratic representative from Georgia; William M. Tuck was a Democratic representative from Virginia; John B. Williams was a Democratic representative from Mississippi. Those acquainted with the other members of his family advised they’re all reputable persons. He was described as a very capable individual, a very solid citizen. They recommended him for a position of trust and confidence.”

Now, I think you can very well say that he doesn’t know anything about this back stuff maneuvering they’re talking about. First he knows about was . . . the President had this FBI [investigation] made, he wasn’t an applicant for anything, he was on the bench doing his job, and the President called him into his office and said that he wanted a man that had legislative experience, had served in the service, and had judicial experience and asked him if he’d accept the job. And that he said well, if the President wanted him to, he’d do it. And that’s all his—

I’ll keep myself clear out of it.

Well, that’s what I’d—I’m not going to hesitate . . . that doesn’t make a difference. But I think any senators you can talk to, you ought to do it. I’ve called John Sparkman. He told me he’d already talked to you, but he’s going to help us.

I called John. You know something, I just called him because he and I are friends.

Yeah, he’s a good man and he’s your friend, and he’s going to help.

Yeah.

And I told Walter Jenkins to call some of the rest of them, but that’s a pretty liberal committee—[Paul] Douglas and [William] Proxmire—and it’s the same group that gave me hell—

I [unclear] that [Edward] Long of Missouri kind of—[note 3] Edward Long was a Democratic senator from Missouri and a member of the Banking and Currency Committee.

Well, Walter’s calling him now and calling Willis Robertson, too. And—

Mr. President?

You ought to see that your Republicans are there. I called Dirksen—

I’ll be—

—and I went over the FBI report with Dirksen and he’s strong for him.

He’ll be right there.

So let’s don’t let them hurt the boy. They tried to hurt John Connally, you know, when he was secretary of the Navy, they tried to butcher him up.[note 4] John Connally had served as secretary of the Navy under President Kennedy from 1961 to 1962 before being elected governor of Texas. During his confirmation hearing, he had undergone intensive questioning regarding his prior work as a lobbyist for the oil industry, including inquiries about defense contracts and his own oil company holdings. For details, see Drew Pearson, “Rumblings Against John Connally,” Washington Post, 16 January 1961; John G. Norris, “10 Pentagon Nominees Win Approval,” Washington Post, 19 January 1961.

I understand. . . . They can’t do it.

All right.

Mr. President?

Yes, sir.

Could I just ask you?

Yes, sir.

We’re going to get your civil rights bill.

Good.

So you can sign it on July 4. But let us get away July 2 or 3.

Well, if you get some of those things passed out of there, damn it.

We can’t—now wait just a minute. I don’t know what the heck you’re talking about, but you say to me,“Do the poverty bill.” You can’t get that rule out. You can’t possibly do it. Why don’t you meet with your people in the morning and give us Republicans a kind of a generous sort of a thing? We got 17 boys on that Resolutions Committee:[note 5] Halleck was referring to the Resolutions Committee for the 1964 Republican National Convention. Representative Melvin W. Laird of Wisconsin chaired the committee. Others listed in the following passage were Republican representatives and members of the committee. Cabell Phillips, “Platform Fight Looms for Republicans,” New York Times, 28 June 1964. We’ve got Mel Laird [of Wisconsin], the chairman; we’ve got Charlie Goodell in New York—God, he’s been in your corner more times than you can shake a stick at—and we got Glen Lipscomb of California’s helping him. And I’ve got to go out there; I got to go out there. Clarence Brown’s [of Ohio] got to go out there, Mr. President. Don’t barrel these people to keep us here that week.

Well, Charlie, you know when they let us get out: the day before the convention.[note 6] Johnson was probably referring to the 1960 Democratic National Convention in Los Angeles. I don’t want to keep you—I’d love for them to all go out, and the only way . . . only thing you got to do is just go on and act on these things you got. Now, you know that you oughtn’t to—

Now, which—which do you mean?

Well, I mean, I don’t know. We got 31 proposals at one house or the other.

I understand. Now, wait a minute, Mr. President. I appreciate your calling me, and I don’t want to detain you because you’re a damn sight more important than I am. But let me just tell you this, my friend: We get your civil rights bill passed, and you can’t do it without us, understand? You sign that up July 4. Give us the next two weeks off in the House—I’m not talking about the Senate—for our convention. We got 17 guys on that Resolutions Committee. You can’t pass anything that next week. I’ll guarantee you, you can’t.[note 7] The Republican National Convention would begin on 13 July in San Francisco.

Well, Charlie, why don’t you let us go on—why don’t you let us take these things up, let the majority decide it?

Well, I’ll let you—now, goddamn it, Mr. President, I’ll do a few of those things, but you ain’t going to curry any favor with me, I might as well be blunt about it, making us stay here when we got 20, 30 guys from the House wanting to go to our convention. What you going to take up the week before our convention?

I’d like to take up every one of these 31 that we need to pass.

Hmm. Well, we got four weeks between our convention and yours. If you want to keep the Rules Committee in session, that’s OK. I . . . And as far as I’m concerned, I think a lot of these things ought to be voted on, Mr. President. But I’m telling you right now, when you . . . I tell you, I’m going to be a little tough to get along with if you keep us right here . . . And you’ve got a lot of guys on your side going to be tough to get along with, on the House side.[note 8] The Presidential Recordings Program revised the following section of text in 2021 for inclusion in The LBJ Telephone Tapes, a project produced by the Miller Center in partnership with the Lyndon B. Johnson Presidential Library to commemorate the library's 50th anniversary.

Well, Charlie, don’t you think I ought to try to get my program passed?

Yes, you do. But I don’t think you can do it—

If you were in my place—if you were in my place—

Now, wait—

—and you had a House—

Wait a minute, Mr. President—

—meets on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thurs[day]—

[speaking over President Johnson] You’re not going to do it—you’re not going to do it the week after the 4th of July . . . and ahead of our [Republican National] Convention. I don’t think you are. And I’m—I was about to call you, Mr. President.

Well, do it between now and the 4th of July. Get these things passed. You oughtn’t to hold up my poverty bill. That’s a good bill. There’s no reason why you ought to keep a majority from beating it. If you can beat it, go on and beat it, but you oughtn’t to hold it up. You ought to give me a fair shake and give me a chance to vote on it. I’ve got it in my budget.

Well, [unclear]—

I’ve cut my budget a billion under last year.

[curtly] Wait a minute. Let me talk [unclear] just a minute. You want this civil rights bill through, you want the tax bill through, and I helped you do it. And goddamn it, did I help you on civil rights?

Yeah, you sure did. You helped Kennedy . . .

Well, for Christ’s sake—

You agreed with him.

—helped Kennedy, and I helped you.

That’s right.

Now, wait just a minute, my friend.

Then you helped yourself. ’Course you all want civil rights much as we do. I believe it’s a nonpartisan bill. I don’t think it’s a Johnson bill.

No, no, no, no, no, you’re going to get all the political advantage. We aren’t going to get a goddamn thing.

[speaking over Halleck] No . . . no. No, no.

Wait just a minute. Now, we got a lot of things in that bill, but I don’t know what the hell the Senate put in there. Maybe we ought to kind of take a little look at it.

Well, maybe you ought to. I’m not saying that you ought—

Now, wait a minute, Mr. President. I’m just looking at it hard-boiled. And once in a while I can get hard-boiled.

Well, you wouldn’t want to go to your convention without a civil rights bill, would you?

You know, as a matter of fact, if you scratch me very deep, Mr. President . . . I—

I wouldn’t scratch you at all, ’cause I want to pat you.

Wait just a minute. Wait just a minute. [President Johnson chuckles softly.] If I had my way, I’d let you folks be fussing with that goddamn thing before your convention instead of ours. But I’m perfectly willing to give you the right to sign that thing on July 4. Now, I think you’re taking advantage of a[n] Independence Day thing that ain’t right. But that’s not for me to say.

I don’t know what you’re talking about.

You want to sign this—

I haven’t heard anything about that. I haven’t—I haven’t said—

—civil rights bill on July 4.

No.

Well, the papers have been full of it.

I haven’t said a word about it. Nobody’s asked me anything about it.

And I’ll tell you something: if you sign it that day, I ain’t going to be there, ’cause I’m going.

All right.

I’m going. Mr. President, I wish you—what you’d do . . . And God knows I . . . Look, you got a tax bill, you got a civil rights bill, you got a hell of a lot of other things coming along. Don’t press us too goddamn hard. I . . . I’ll do just about anything I can for you.

Well, go on and report my poverty bill. Quit holding it up there in that damn Rules Committee.

Now, wait just a minute. Let’s—we’ll get at that—

They’ve had that all debated. They’ve debated it, they’ve delayed, they—

All right, [unclear]. If you—if you try to shove that—

I’m not trying to shove. Hell, I been trying for six months to even get a vote on it!

Yes, Mr.—

They held it up over there. I never saw such a spectacle. Every man, they were bitter and mean and vicious and—in the Labor Committee—and then they got it over there, and now they’re up testifying in Rules.

[speaking under President Johnson] Well, wait a minute. Now, let’s just go back over it a little bit. You’ve got a great important thing called the civil rights bill, with a hell of a lot of far-reaching amendments. I’m sorry I’m holding you up this much, but I’m just going to do it. A hell of a lot of amendments. You want me to buy those without any chance in the House to look them over. Well, Mr. President, I guess maybe I’ll do it, but, Jesus Christ, don’t push me too far. Now, give me a little chance—

[speaking over Halleck] I haven’t pushed you at all, my friend. I haven’t even discussed it with you.[note 9] End of 2021 revisions.

[Unclear.] No, I understand.

Have I?

I understand.

Have—

Well, look, no, no.

I haven’t even asked it. I haven’t discussed it with them.

No, no, no. No—

I just let you-all run your own show.

—[unclear]. Look, Mr. President, let me go back over it.

I was discussing something else. I wasn’t talking about legislation.

You haven’t pushed me. . . . You haven’t pushed me.

Hmm?

You haven’t pushed me.

No, I sure don’t want to, Charlie. I want to be . . .[note 10] The Presidential Recordings Program revised the following section of text in 2021 for inclusion in The LBJ Telephone Tapes, a project produced by the Miller Center in partnership with the Lyndon B. Johnson Presidential Library to commemorate the library's 50th anniversary.

Now, wait a minute. I want to pass the civil rights bill. And let me tell you what I want to do: I want to pass—I’m going to help you do it—the civil rights bill as it passed the Senate, understand?

You give me a rule on my poverty bill and let me vote on that, Charlie.

Now, wait just a minute. I’ll give you a rule in due time, but don’t press me, and don’t—[note 11] The House Rules Committee would not grant a rule for the economic opportunity (poverty) bill until 28 July.

I’m not pressing you. I’m just—I’m—

Goddamn it, Mr. President—

I’m not pressing you any more than you’re pressing me, my friend. I’m just making a statement. Please—I’m telling you about things I’m interested in, and you want to, I think, be helpful.

All right, in due time, I’ll give you a [rule]. But if you—

OK.

—keep me here, I got [unclear] deal. [Unclear]—

No, [unclear], Charlie, I want to sure enough try to get it acted on in the Senate. And they don’t want to go into working on the bill in the hearings until we act on it in the House. [speaking over Halleck] And you could do that; you could let me have that rule tomorrow if you wanted to.

Just—could I—Look, you’re an old Senate hand.

Yeah, a[n] old House hand, too.

Wait a minute. And you’re a House man.

An old Halleck man.

All right, [President Johnson laughs] and you’re a Halleck man, and I’m a Johnson man. But, Christ—

[chuckling] Give me a little rule up there in the morning.

—am I glad you called me [President Johnson laughs] because, my friend, I just wish I was right there with you.

Well, we’ll get together this week.

Let me tell you something.

We’ll get together this week.

Mr. President?

Yeah?

Jesus Christ—

I’ll call you this week, and we’ll—

—us guys—Wait a minute. Us guys in the House have carried the hod for you . . .[note 12] A hod was an apparatus used by masons to carry mortar or bricks.

Well, you call them up and tell them to give me a rule on that poverty bill so I can get it— [unclear comment by Halleck] I’ve got it over in the Senate, you see?

All right, now, wait just a minute. I ain’t going to give you any rule on the goddamn poverty bill until I know what the hell we’re doing.

Well . . . well, what can I tell or how can I tell you what we’re doing? I’ll tell you anything I know. I’ll call you any day this week that you’re free, and we’ll sit down and talk together.

OK.

OK.

Thank [you].

Bye.[note 13] End of 2021 revisions.