… [unclear] but I can’t do it here, that …

[Unclear.]

And I also had the same thing with [UAW President Walter] Reuther. Reuther was pretty strong for [unclear].

Reuther?

I don’t want him quoted, and I don’t want another human to know that but you.

Yes.

He told me this morning; I talked to him about the auto settlement negotiations. And he said that “we think that the president oughtn’t be required to get in bed and sleep with a woman that he doesn’t like. And it’s for a four-year term, and not knowing if he would get a knife in his back or what’d happen because he’s … wouldn’t make a good president doing that. And he’d ruin the party, and he’d ruin us. So I want you to get whoever you want; I’m going to be for him [unclear].” But—

[Unclear.]

Because I don’t think that we can afford to say here’s a man and a wife, a team like a president and a vice president, and we’re going to put a wife over there that may stick him in the back as soon as he dozes off a little bit.

Hello?

Senator Holland calling again.

All right. Tell him that Mr. Dave Lawrence is with me, and I will talk to him in just one second.

All right.

Holland wants to talk to me about the carpenters’ bill, and I—

Hello?

Hello, Mr. President?

Yes, Spessard, how are you?

First, thank you for your birthday message.

Well, I’m sorry that you got another one, but I—you’re the youngest man I know to be having birthdays.

I’m glad to … I’m glad to have attained another one. [The President laughs.] I’m only 72; I’m looking forward to several more.

Well, you act like about 52; I can’t keep up with you.

Well, thank you.

Second, I congratulate you and thank you for appointing LeRoy Collins. He and I, as you know, don’t agree on everything in this field of civil rights, but he’s a splendid man to do that particular conciliation job. And of course I’m going to help every way I can.

Well, thank you, Spessard. Thank you.

Now, third: I’m especially interested in Linton Collins.[note 2] Linton Collins was a Florida attorney who had been in charge of personnel for the New Deal National Recovery Administration. He currently was a practicing attorney in the nation’s capital. I’ve talked to you about it before. He’s the only man I’ve ever talked to you about for an appointment. The [U.S.] Court of Claims is what we’re talking about.

Mm-hmm.

And I’m talking for myself, Dick Russell, and Lister Hill.

Mm-hmm.

Dick said that he’d talked to you once before about this, and he still feels the same way, only, if anything, stronger.

Mm-hmm.

And I know that George [Smathers] feels this way. He told me he was going to mention it.

Both of them have.

He has?

I’ve got some problems; I’ve got some other commitments. But I’ve got a little thing … problem with it, and I don’t know how it will work out.

I like Linton, and I’ve known him for a good many years, and he’s been a good friend of mine—just like he has you-all’s, and I’m very fond of him.

Well, may I just a moment … outline the thing as I see it?

Yeah.

First place, he gave years of his life up here helping Franklin D. Roosevelt in his patronage problems.

Yeah, I know that.

Second, he went over his own expense and helped Dick at [the] Chicago [Democratic National Convention].[note 3] This is probably a reference to Georgia Senator Richard Russell’s 1952 bid for the Democratic presidential nomination, but could possibly be to Richard Daley, mayor of Chicago. Chicago was home to the Democratic National Convention in 1952 and 1956.

I know that. I remember it.

Some of the rest of us were very much interested, as you were, too.

I remember that … I remember it.

Third, he’s not only related to Paul Rogers, and to Paul’s two brothers, who are in very strategic positions in Florida, but also to numerous others in Florida.[note 4] Paul Rogers was nearing his tenth year as a Democratic congressman from Florida. Rogers took over the seat from his father. He has a brother who is a very high[ly] regarded citizen at Fort Pierce and a cousin who is in Coral Gables. And then he’s a native of Georgia, and with many relatives up there, and his wife is the daughter of former governor [Lamartine] Hardman of Georgia.[note 5] Collins was a graduate of the Baptist-affiliated Mercer College in Macon, Georgia. And the relationships and the contacts are immense.

Yes, they are.

The kind of people that I go all out to try to get in my corner, and I—

Yeah.

—I just feel like that they might have a real meaning to you, me, and everybody else in this thing that’s coming ahead.

Yeah. … I think it would; I think it would.

Well, at any rate, besides that he’s a very fine lawyer, and his standing here is of the best. I hope you can do it … [. . .]—

I feel, I feel—I share your view in all those things. I’ve got problems: I’ve got some other commitments, and I’ve got problems even in connection with those, so I can’t offer him any hope or much encouragement, but I’ll keep him in mind for anything that comes up with me, because I feel an affinity with him, and I’ve worked with him in connection with this school out here. He’s on the board of trustees of …

Yes, Gallaudet [College]?[note 6] Located in Washington, D.C., Gallaudet College was a college for the hearing impaired that had a close association with the federal government throughout its over 100-year history.

The … Gallaudet. And I see him there and talk to him, and he’s got—we got a lot of mutual friends, and you and Dick and George [Meany] …

Well, Olin Johnston is strongly in there too.[note 7] Olin Johnston was a Democratic senator from South Carolina.

… Meany. Yeah.

By the way, Dick thought that if there was—when there was a new vacancy in the [U.S.] Court of Claims that you were disposed to appoint him when such vacancy would occur.

No. No, he talked to me when these vacancies were announced. There are two of them, and they … they weren’t real vacancies. They got off, and I got problems just the same time they did. And I told Dick at that time that I wouldn’t be able to give him [Collins] either one of the two places, and I told him I had to … problems that would prevent my doing that, and that I appreciated what he’d said about him, and I had a very high evaluation of him, and I felt by him very much like he did, and—substantially what I’ve said to you.

But I didn’t tell him that I would give him the vacancy that came up, and I don’t know of any more anyway.

Well—

But those two were—I got involved even before I announced that they were leaving.

Yeah, well, I understood that, but I understood that the appointee for this second place is out of the way now, and that that place is again open.

No, no. No, it’s not. No, we’ve got some problems, but it’s not out of the way.

Well, do everything you can, Mr. President. I’m immensely interested in this—

I know that.

—and so is George and Paul and all of us, and, as I’ve already mentioned, Dick and Lister and Olin. And if you can do it, why, we’ll appreciate it more than anything nearly you can do.

Fine, Spessard. I appreciate it. I don’t think that there’s any possibility of it working out on this vacancy, but I’ll certainly bear him in mind for any others. You reckon he’s interested in any other type of judicial work? I mean …

No, this is the vacancy that he’s after. He would like one of these lifetime judge appointments. He’s getting up to the age that he can’t expect [unclear]—

Sometimes there … sometimes there’s something comes along, you know, with the customs court, or the customs and appeals, or the tax, or the military appeals, or even the appellate bench. And—

Well, the Court of Customs Appeals …

All of those are lifetime jobs.

… or the tax court are both lifetime jobs, as I remember.

Yeah … yeah. Yeah, they are, I believe.

And at any rate, I hope you can do this for him …

You think he might be interested in any lifetime job?

I think he would.

Yeah.

I think he would.

Mm-hmm.

That I would have to check with him.

Mm-hmm.

But … there may be a vacancy on the Circuit Court of Appeals right here in the District [of Columbia].

There is; there is. But I’ve got problems there; I couldn’t give him that.

But I may have something for him, and I just … if I were you, without offering him any commitment or any hope, I’d just say to him that the claims thing appears to be out—and I think odds are 99 to 1 it is that … that’s that. So if he is interested in some other of the other courts that might turn up from time to time down the road, let me know, and it will give us a little broader chance and a little better opportunity to help him.

You’ve been in the chief executive [office], and you know what these problems are.[note 8] Holland was governor of Florida during the Second World War. And I’d like to know if, for instance, something happened—I believe somebody told me something’s going to happen on the Customs Court of Appeals. But, as I remember, it may just be the chairman change of the chief judge; it may not be a new man.

But, anyway, if I knew that he were available, I’d bear him in mind as I’ve had to some of these others when it comes up.

I’ll tell you now, without having heard from him, that I think you may bear him in mind for those other lifetime jobs—

All right.

—that are here in Washington.

Good. … Good, good.

You see, he has his permanent home here; it’s a lovely home.

Yeah … good.

And bear in him mind for those things open.

Good … sure will. Thank you, Spessard.

Thank you, Lyndon.

Give my love to Mary.[note 9] Mary Agnes Holland was Senator Holland’s wife.