Hello?[note 1] The Presidential Recordings Program revised the following section of text in 2021 for inclusion in The LBJ Telephone Tapes, a project produced by the Miller Center in partnership with the Lyndon B. Johnson Presidential Library to commemorate the library's 50th anniversary.

Hello?

Hello, John. How are you?

Fine, Mr. President. How are you this morning?

Pretty good, John.

Looks like we had a big event down at Cape Canaveral [Florida] a while ago.

Well, we were watching it. We hope it works out all right. We got a long ways to go, and these boys [the Soviets] are kind of running rings around us, but we don’t get hot until we get real behind. Then we start looking for somebody to make a scapegoat out of.[note 2] A few days earlier, the Soviet Union had sent a manned space flight, with two cosmonauts, into the highest orbit yet reached. “Feat Seen as Evidence of U.S. Lag,” Los Angeles Times, 19 March 1965.

Yeah. Well . . .

[Chuckles.] We—[Richard B.] Dick Russell [Jr.] [D–Georgia] called me when Sputnik 1 went up and said, “My God, you got to go to Washington.[note 3] Richard B. “Dick” Russell Jr. was a U.S. senator [D–Georgia] from January 1933 to January 1971; chair of the Senate Armed Services Committee from January 1951 to January 1953 and January 1955 to January 1969; and chair of the Senate Appropriations Committee from January 1969 to January 1971. I cannot go up there and hold these hearings, but somebody’s got to." And we just played hell, and we were behind. Then we started getting caught up, and then Congress started raising questions, but we—we’ve got everything we asked for in a manned spaceflight, and we think that we got a fair chance to keep up with these people by ʼ70.

Well, we should keep up. [Unclear]—

All this research—this research is the most important thing we can do.

You can’t make some people see it, but you got to—

John, 75 percent of the things that we will be making [a television plays in the background] 25 years from now—

Yeah.

—we have never heard of now. That’s how fast this world changes. And in the year 2000, we’re going to have 80 percent of our people, over 300 million, living in the cities of the country, and this damn world shifting and changing so fast.[note 4] End of 2021 revisions. And we’re changing.

Now, I got 38 percent of these young Negro boys that are out on the streets. They got no school to go to and no job, and, by God, I [am] just scared to death what’s going to happen in June and July. You know when you’re an old, hard-peckered boy, you—

Well, there’s no telling because they’ve got them inflamed—

You know when you were 17, 18; I ran off to California—didn’t think my daddy had any sense—from Texas when I was a boy of 16 [McClellan acknowledges], but you take an old hard-peckered boy that sits around and got no school and got no job and got no work and got no discipline, and his daddy’s probably on relief and his mama’s probably taking morphine—

Yeah.

—why, he ain’t got nothing to hurt if he gets shot. I mean, he’s better off dead than he is where he is.

[Unclear] much to lose, but his life isn’t worth a damn anyhow.

That’s right, [unclear comment by McClellan] and they—there are 38 percent of those are unemployed, and they just fill these cities. What you’ve seen in Selma is nothing. We’re handling things reasonably well there, and what we’ve—in our country. But you just wait till this thing—the rats get going in Harlem and Chicago. [Richard J.] Dick Daley called me the other morning—[note 5] Richard J. “Dick” Daley was the Democratic mayor of Chicago, Illinois, from April 1955 to December 1976.

They going to have it worse up there?

Oh, ten times as bad.

Yeah. Mr. President, the reason I’m calling you, I don’t want to take a lot of your time, Mr. [John W.] Macy [Jr.], chairman of the Civil Service Commission, said you wanted me to call you about Judge [Francis A.] Cherry, who is chairman of the Subversive [Activities] Control Board and who is up for reappointment.[note 6] John W. Macy Jr. was chair of the Civil Service Commission from 1961 to 1969, and president of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting from 1969 to 1972. Francis A. Cherry was the Democratic governor of Arkansas from January 1953 to January 1955; a member of the Subversive Activities Control Board (SACB) since 1955; and chair of the SACB from 1963 to 1965. Cherry died four months after this call. I think we all wrote you a letter, the Arkansas delegation. We don’t have many federal appointments, many representatives up here anywhere. And the delegation thought if you could do it, we’d like to have him reappointed. I didn’t know whether there was anything special you wanted to ask me [unclear]?

Not a bit. I don’t know what’s wrong with Macy. What happened was, they recommended Cherry, and I told them that I had a commitment I wanted to put in, a fellow that’d been with me all through the years, and I didn’t know him, and I sent it back. They came back to me from across the street—they do things civil service-wise—and said, “Well, this fellow had been in the Board.” And I said, “Well, goddamn it, I’m not obligated to keep everybody that’s been here. I haven’t had any appointments, and when these vacancies occurs, I’ve got to bring some of my people in if I run the government.” They came back then and said, “Well, this is a great friend of one or two members—" And I don’t think they specified “of the Arkansas delegation.” And I said, “Well, not a damn one of them have talked to me about it. I don’t know anything about him”—

No, what—

And so that’s the way I left it, but I didn’t—I don’t know Cherry. I don’t . . . I do have a[n] ex-judge that has wanted to come here, and I’ve kind of told him—he was president of the Bar in his state, and I was trying to kind of find something for him, so I just told them that I was committed on it. Now, I don’t know Cherry. I don’t even know the—whether the other . . . what else is involved. I don’t what members have talked to him about it. I’ve got that in about three instances. I got a little Canadian Commission. I’m trying—truth of the business is, I don’t know whether you ever had it or not, but after you [are] in politics 35 years, a few people finance your campaigns, a few of them make your speeches, a few of them get on the sound trucks, and a few of them go to the conventions and lead the delegations, and Arkansas and in Georgia and other places, and you—when it’s over with, why, just like I’ve got, well, the governor of Missouri, old John [M.] Dalton, has been a loyal friend of mine all along.[note 7] John M. Dalton was the Democratic governor of Missouri from January 1961 to January 1965. Harry [F.] Byrd [Sr.] [D–Virginia] wouldn’t let the Virginia delegation change, even if I died.[note 8] Harry F. Byrd Sr. was a U.S. senator [D–Virginia] from March 1933 to November 1965, and chair of the Senate Finance Committee from 1955 to 1965. He made the Governor instruct for me in ‘60, till it died, just like y’all did. But I had—other day I had to take care of one of his boys that wanted to be an ambassador.

Yeah.

I had a little problem over at [J. William] Bill [Fulbright]‘s [D–Arkansas] Committee.[note 9] J. William “Bill” Fulbright was a U.S. senator [D–Arkansas] from January 1945 to December 1974, and chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee from January 1959 to December 1974. President Johnson was likely referring to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee chaired by Fulbright. They didn’t like—they thought he was . . . might raise a little fuss about it, wasn’t quite foreign service, didn’t have enough stripes on his britches, but he was going to a small place, and didn’t make any difference. But I have to find places for some of our people. [McClellan acknowledges.] That’s what I was doing. I don’t know anything about Cherry. If it’s important, anything that’s important to you is important to me, and I’ll take another look at it. If it’s not—

Let me say it this way, Mr. President. I don’t want to overemphasize this thing. Cherry and I have always been friendly, but this matter slipped up on everybody. He didn’t say anything to anybody about it, and his brother-in-law came to me about three days before his—four days before his time expired. [President Johnson laughs.] Well, hell, he hasn’t said anything to any of us about it.

[speaking over McClellan] Well, I’d just tell him the President’s committed, and if you—here’s what I—

I called up Macy immediately, and then I got to call the delegation, told them we ought to get you a letter, which we did.

Yeah.

And he is a good man, and he has had awful bad luck. He got beat down there by [Orval E.] Faubus, you know, for a second term.[note 10] Orval E. Faubus was the Democratic governor of Arkansas from January 1955 to January 1967. But he’s got nobody to blame but himself for that. But—

I would like to appoint another man, John, and will and plan to. [speaking over McClellan] But I don’t want to hurt anybody’s feelings, and the last man I want to hurt is you.

[Unclear.] Hold it a few days. I’m going to have [to] come down there and see you.

[speaking under McClellan] All right. All right. All right.

By the way—just hold it for [unclear].

I can’t—

Can’t you hold it for the [unclear]?

Of course I can. You’re damn right, I can do anything you want me to do and do.

All right, then just hold it for the present till we examine it further. Now, in the meantime, Senator [Abraham “Abe”] Ribicoff [D–Connecticut] and I requested to see you about a matter that is pretty important to our states.[note 11] Abraham A. “Abe” Ribicoff was a U.S. senator [D–Connecticut] from January 1963 to January 1981, and a member of the Finance Committee. I don’t know whether you can do anything about it or not. I don’t know whether the letters reach you.

Yes, it has—

But we would like to talk to you sometime about that.

I told—

If our figures are correct, the Department’s wrong. If their figures are right, we are wrong. That’s as simple [unclear]—

What I told them they ought to do, John, was this. I don’t know a thing about it one way or the other, but I told the boy that talked to me, I said, “You tell McClellan and Ribicoff they can walk right in on me in my bedroom anytime they want to. They—" I know, but they are my friends. I don’t know a damn thing about it. I’d rather make an appointment over with [Nicholas “Nick”] Katzenbach and let him set down and reason it out with them.[note 12] Nicholas “Nick” Katzenbach was U.S. assistant attorney general from 1961 to 1962; U.S. deputy attorney general from April 1962 to January 1965; acting U.S. attorney general from September 1964 to January 1965; U.S. attorney general from February 1965 to October 1966; and U.S. under secretary of state from October 1966 to January 1969. And if they can’t get together, then come to see me.

Well, we did now once, but maybe we ought to go back there again?

I would do it. I made him see some folks last night.

Well, I’ll tell you what, Katzenbach wanted to see me about some other things.

He would and he respects you.

So I’ll—he wants to see me, so I’ll just call him and call Abe and see if we can’t just have Katzenbach come to my office and go over this thing with him again.

Confidentially—

Then, if we can’t do anything, we’ll talk to you.

Confidentially, I called Katzenbach in before I appointed him.

Yeah.

And I told him that I did not want any fights with you. I wanted him to work with you. That you had been my lawyer when I was in the Senate and he was my lawyer now. And to get up there and take his crime bills to you and what you wanted to handle, let you handle. What you didn’t, let you tell him who to handle them, and be damn sure that he work with you. That I drafted you to go on Judiciary [Committee]. You didn’t want to do it. [McClellan acknowledges] I made you do it several years ago to help old [Patrick A.] Pat McCarran because he had to have some help, and he said he would do it.[note 13] Patrick A. “Pat” McCarran was a U.S. senator [D–Nevada] from March 1933 to September 1954. So I imagine he’s going to work with you pretty close.

Well, when he comes up, let me and Abe talk to him about this matter and then we’ll check with you again.

All right. You let me know what you want to do, and you check in the other thing, and it’ll be held until I hear from you.

All right.

Bye.

Thank you.

Waiting. Waiting.