—well, Mr. President.

They chewing you up?

[Laughs.] No. No, not too bad. I don’t think so.

Aren’t you pretty close to [Joseph L.] Joe Rauh [Jr.]?[note 1] Joseph L. “Joe” Rauh Jr. was a labor attorney; founder of Americans for Democratic Action; and a civil rights advocate.

Oh, I can talk to him. We always disagree about everything. But I—

Well, he had a good meeting with us the other day, and I think that we left them in good shape.[note 2] Labor attorney Joe Rauh had led a delegation from the Americans for Democratic Action in a White House meeting on 2 April.

Vietnam meeting, is that the one?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[laughing] You didn’t leave them with any clothes on.

I thought maybe you ought to tell him that you want to do business with him and that I like him, and I want to do business with him, but he’s got to get merit people. He’s just been raising hell here long enough. I got a memo last night from [W.] Ramsey [Clark], and he said that Robertson and the other one, neither one are good enough to—that court.[note 3] W. Ramsey Clark was U.S. assistant attorney general from 1961 to 1965; U.S. deputy attorney general from January 1965 to March 1967; acting U.S. attorney general from November 1966 to March 1967; and U.S. attorney general from March 1967 to January 1969. We ought to get a do-er in there, and just tell him if he can go out and find somebody, but we got to have the top man. We just can’t take these second-raters. Tell him I said, “There’s enough of them at the top,” me and you. [Katzenbach laughs.]

And we’ve got to have first-rate people. And we’ll play ball with him, and we’ll follow him here in the District any way we can, but we just can’t take these scrubs because they’re married to somebody or got a sister-in-law. Any reason why you can’t talk to him that frank?

No. No. There’s no reason.

Just say, “Now, we know you’re obligated to this man because his wife works like hell, and we want to—we want to recognize that. We don’t want to put him on the bench. I’ll get the President to give him something else. I’ll get him something else. We’ll put him on some board around here. But we just—we don’t want to put him on the bench. We need this bench cleaned up. I’m going to be the first attorney general that made Washington crime-free. Now, I’m going to do it, Joe, and I got to have your help, but I got to have a real 35-, 40-year-old do-er that works like hell day and night, and I think you and I owe that to the President. He wants merit, and he appoints every man I send over there, and I want to send your man, but I can’t send this fellow because he really hasn’t got it, and the one that we got here is a little better.” I don’t remember what his name—I think Atkinson and Robertson or something. There’re two of them.

Yeah. Yes, there’s the two—

“But one of them’s a little better, but neither one of them meet my standard. I just got to get the best man because we’ve got this mayor from Selma coming out here and looking for entertainment and stuff like that.[note 4] In an incident that caused the press to mock him as a rube, Selma mayor Joseph Smitherman and a friend lost money in a visit to Washington, D.C., in what newspapers referred to as a “Murphy” con where the men’s envelope of cash was swapped for one filled with paper. “Con Man Gyps Selma Mayor, Friend of $107,” Washington Post, 6 April 1965. [Katzenbach laughs.] We’ve just got to have the best here in Washington.” So, see if you can’t sell him on that package.

All right.

Now, it looks like to me they’re just really murdering us on this publicity on this [voting rights] bill. They’re having to redo the bill to protect the country from Texas, and Johnson has overlooked this, and so on and so forth. Now, the Republicans won’t get anywhere in the House bill, will they?

No. No, Mr. President. No, I think—

Well, I’m really disappointed in [William M. “Bill”] McCulloch [R–Ohio].[note 5] William M. “Bill” McCulloch was a U.S. representative [R–Ohio] from November 1947 to January 1973, and the ranking Republican on the House Judiciary Committee. I was a great admirer of his.

Oh, I’ve been disappointed in him, too. I think he’s even disappointed in himself, in a way. I think he’s wanted to go along, but he can’t bring the leadership with him. Now, I think he will end up going along with our bill. I’m inclined to think whether he does or doesn’t, we have the votes in the House, Mr. President. The only thing they’re likely to do in the House is try to abolish all poll tax by statute. We talked about that before.[note 6] See President Johnson and Nicholas Katzenbach, 25 March 1965, Conversation WH6503-12-7150. I’ve tried to discourage it, but . . . I really just don’t think the court would go that far.

Well, can’t we abolish all poll tax by constitutional amendment?[note 7] Ratified in January 1964, the 24th Amendment prohibited the use of the poll tax in federal elections. The U.S. Supreme Court outlawed the poll tax in other elections in its 1966 Harper v. Virginia decision.

Can by constitutional amendment, yeah.

Why don’t we get some liberal to offer a constitutional amendment to . . . a resolution?

Yeah, we could—

And get that [Edward M.] Teddy Kennedy [D–Massachusetts] or somebody in Judiciary [Committee] to offer one right after this, and I would sure put them on the spot by letting somebody—of course, you know better strategy than I do.[note 8] Edward M. “Teddy” Kennedy was a U.S. senator [D–Massachusetts] from November 1962 until his death on 25 August 2009, and Senate Democratic Whip from January 1969 to January 1971. I haven’t thought about it, but I’d give them hell on that Puerto Rican thing.[note 9] To Katzenbach’s dismay, the proposed legislation would not eliminate a literacy requirement for Puerto Ricans in New York who were not literate in English. The final bill did skirt that requirement by deeming anyone who had gone to an English-speaking school through the sixth grade as literate. E. W. Kenworthy, “Voting Bill No Aid to Puerto Ricans,” New York Times, 20 March 1965; “Voting Rights Law for Puerto Ricans Upheld,” Los Angeles Times, 14 June 1966. I’d make them back up and run.

Well, I [unclear]—

I wouldn’t be responsible for it. I’d let [Robert F.] Bobby [Kennedy] [D–New York] give it to them in the Senate, and I’d let the ablest man I had in the House just shove it and shove it and shove it.[note 10] Robert F. “Bobby” Kennedy was U.S. attorney general from January 1961 to September 1964, and a U.S. senator [D–New York] from January 1965 until his assassination in June 1968.

I already have started that. I did that with the Democratic Study Group yesterday.

That’s good.

And just told them to—you know, it’s half a million—[laughs] it’s half a million votes in New York if we can get it, and I think we ought to at least pin responsibility on why it isn’t in there. So, I told them to [unclear]—

Now, we didn’t have it in our bill, did we?

No, we didn’t. Didn’t have it in our bill—

Why didn’t we?

Well, because you wanted a bipartisan bill, Mr. President, and I couldn’t get bipartisan support for Puerto Ricans. I can’t now. But that’s no reason why one of these fellows in Congress there or on both sides can’t offer it.

Now, Nick, you know they’re going to screw you to death on delay. They’re just doing that. [Everett M.] Dirksen [R–Illinois] is calling up and saying he wants to put off and put off and put off.[note 11] Everett M. Dirksen was a U.S. senator [R–Illinois] from January 1951 until his death in September 1969, and Senate Minority Leader from January 1959 to September 1969. They’re not going to consider this thing now before Easter.

Yeah, I know.

And this day and night thing—

The steam goes out of it, that’s the problem—

Yeah. That’s right.

—down there. Well, I got—[Emanuel] Manny [Celler] [R–New York] is working harder than I’ve ever seen him work.[note 12] Emanuel “Manny” Celler was a U.S. representative [D–New York] from March 1923 to January 1973, and chair of the House Judiciary Committee. Celler, a liberal Democrat from Brooklyn, was one of the stalwarts who had made passage of a strong Civil Rights Act in 1964 possible. I’ll say that.

When’s he going to report?

He’s going to get it to the full committee, going to get it reported to the Rules [Committee] before the Easter [holiday].

Easter.

Easter.

[speaking over Katzenbach] Well, that’s all right. That’s all right, and—that’s all right, and then the Senate will get it reported, too, by Easter.

Yes, and it’ll be just pretty much the way it is now, and I’m—I agree with you about the publicity on it.

Yeah, they’re making it look like that they’re taking it over to Dirksen every day, says it’s a Dirksen bill, and the next day when they find something wrong, it’s a Johnson bill.

[Laughs.] I recognize that.

It just shifts. So, I’d just—

I [unclear] be on Meet the Press this Sunday, and I think I can do something there to help a little bit.

Well, I’ll tell you what I’d do on that Meet the Press. I’d just say anytime you have a chance, anywhere, that “the President, since he first entered politics, has been trying to repeal the poll tax in his own state. He’s wanted to do that. He’s bought radio time. He and Mr. [Samuel T. “Sam”] Rayburn had campaigned over the state.[note 13] Samuel T. “Sam” Rayburn was a U.S. representative [D–Texas] from March 1913 to November 1961; Speaker of the House from September 1940 until his death in November 1961; and one of Lyndon Johnson’s political mentors. But he’s not a lawyer, and every lawyer that he’s talked to that he believes in told him he couldn’t repeal it by statute.”

Right.

“He has voted against repealing it by statute all through the years, so they say he’s voted against it 13 times, because lawyers say he couldn’t do it. He told me to try to see if there was any possible way to do it. I didn’t see it. I was afraid it would handicap the bill, but”—

It would be tragic, [unclear]—

—“he authored the constitutional amendment.” I brought up this constitutional amendment thing, got it all organized, got people to sign it with me, got a majority of them, and really got the constitutional amendment thing through. Now, if they can do it by bill, I sure would love nothing better, because I have carried the heavy weights on my shoulders all these years for not being able to repeal poll tax by statute. Now, these northerners, they just jump up and repeal it every minute by statute. They don’t care how the vote was.

Well, these are the same fellows two years ago were agreed that you couldn’t that do it by statute. [Laughs.] You know, it’s—

Well, how is that?

They don’t have to take the responsibilities for it, and I think I do. I think I have a responsibility to keep something constitutional.

I got you—I gave in and just agreed to get [unclear] by your crowd in Wisconsin, so I’m going to put your man, governor or whatever his name is, this ex-politician. I don’t want you and Ramsey ever talking to me about standards anymore, though. [speaking over Katzenbach] He came . . . he came over there and—

[laughing] Mr. President?

Yeah.

They have very high standards there.

Yeah, the hell you have. [Katzenbach laughs.] This defeated politician, rejected by the people, who’s gutting at me all the time on what’s his name, governor—

[John W.] Reynolds [Jr.].[note 14] John W. Reynolds Jr. was the Democratic governor of Wisconsin from January 1963 to January 1965, and a judge for the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Wisconsin from October 1965 to August 1986.

Reynolds—that’s not very high standard. I can give you a bunch of ex-congressmen if you want them, ex-governors. Got [Matthew E.] Matt Welsh [D–Indiana] in Indiana, and John—what’s—Dalton [D–Missouri] in Missouri, and got [Albert D.] Rosellini [D–Washington] in Washington.[note 15] Matthew E. “Matt” Welsh was the Democratic governor of Indiana from January 1961 to January 1965. John M. Dalton was the Democratic governor of Missouri from January 1961 to January 1965. Albert D. Rosellini was the Democratic governor of Washington from January 1957 to January 1965, and chair of the National Governors Association from July 1962 to July 1963. I’ll just feed them to you boys, if you and Ramsey like them. [Laughs.]

[Laughs.] Mr. President, there’s a slight misunderstanding. [Both laugh.][note 16] The Presidential Recordings Program revised the following section of text in 2021 for inclusion in The LBJ Telephone Tapes, a project produced by the Miller Center in partnership with the Lyndon B. Johnson Presidential Library to commemorate the library's 50th anniversary.

Well, have you got your department—what—have you done any more work on our taxman?

Yeah. I got two people that I’m looking pretty close at, and I talked to somebody on antitrust this morning, [Donald F.] Don Turner from Harvard, who . . . probably the outstanding younger man in the country.[note 17] Donald F. “Don” Turner was a professor at Harvard Law School from 1954 to 1965, and U.S. assistant attorney general for the Antitrust Division from 1965 to 1968. He had a heart attack about three years ago and wasn’t interested in 1961 for that reason. I think he might be interested now.

Can’t you get me somebody in the Midwest or South or West besides all these Harvard men? Do you know, honestly, that nine men out of ten that I name are Harvard men?

No, I [unclear].

They are. They’re just everybody that [John W.] Macy [Jr.] sends me—[note 18] John W. Macy Jr. was chair of the Civil Service Commission from 1961 to 1969, and president of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting from 1969 to 1972.

I have a man—

I cut about six of them back yesterday, just one right after the other. Now, I know it’s a hell of a good school, and I’m for it, [Katzenbach attempts to interject] and I don’t mind them having 30 percent. But I want California. They’re just raising hell. They got the biggest delegation up here, and we never can find anybody real good from California. Now, the University—

[speaking over President Johnson] I’ve got a man for tax from California that . . . I think might be real good, and I think would have some political backing out there.

We’ve got to have [Edmund G. “Pat”] Brown [D–California] and the delegation, anybody in California.[note 19] Edmund G. “Pat” Brown was the Democratic governor of California from January 1959 to January 1967. They got their feelings hurt. They’re mad. They thought we sent Pierre [E. G. Salinger] out to run against them, and they thought that lost them a seat and screwed things up, and I suspect it did. We had nothing to do with it, but we get the blame for it. They had under secretary of interior. We—he quit. They wanted a job, and [Stewart L.] Udall took a man from Idaho.[note 20] Stewart L. Udall was U.S. secretary of the interior from January 1961 to January 1969. Well, there’s a hell of a lot of difference between Idaho and California in a convention and in an election, too. So, they’re mad about that. Then they’re getting ready to pass my education bill, about half of them get [unclear]. And they say, well, if we don’t want the 40 votes for California, [unclear]. [Katzenbach acknowledges.] We want to go to Idaho, get the one they got up there. And that’s the shape we’re in.

We’re in the same shape in Texas. They’re getting mad at us. We haven’t got anything. [W.] Ramsey Clark’s their only guy. They got nobody in the Cabinet. They got nothing. But we can get by with them, but we’ve got [snorts]—we’ve got nothing in the West. [Richard J.] Dick Daley doesn’t get much.[note 21] Richard J. “Dick” Daley was the Democratic mayor of Chicago, Illinois, from April 1955 to December 1976. You were supposed to be his man, but I don’t know how simpatico we are. And he thinks that Doug was kind of—we play with him a little bit and nobody else. We—Wisconsin gets—There are two states that get everything: Wisconsin and this goddamned Harvard, and I guess because Wisconsin’s got a good public school.

So I’m going to start my library, and I’m going to take a hundred people a year from over the country, the United States, and give them four-year scholarships, just about got all they can eat and wear during that four years, and make them be straight As, and then turn them out of Texas every year. That’s what my—what I’m going to do when I get out of here. Just go back there and teach. Teach them and make the University of Texas finance it, and they’ve already agreed to put in 18, 20 million dollars.

Gee, that’d be great.[note 22] End of 2021 revisions.

That’s—we’re going to turn out some people, and I think that’s why Wisconsin’s got all these damn fellows because they must have a good school—

They’ve got a good public school system up there, and then they got a good university.

Well, now, look at California, and then when we [Katzenbach acknowledges] get somebody that looks good, let us call Brown and give him two or three and say here is what they’re talking about. And let’s talk to the delegation, and particularly on underlings for jobs—

All right.

—and assistants, and—

All right, because I have got—there is a good man—a couple of good men in California for this tax [unclear].

I think you ought to propagandize your little . . . folks that you keep on leash over there all the time. I recognize your interviews everyday or so, Mary [unclear]. I think you ought to propagandize them on excellence. [Katzenbach acknowledges.] Have them at your house some night, and have Ramsey there and have [Frederick M.] Fred Vinson [Jr.] there and have your young man that you’re bringing in yourself, this Coloradoan.[note 23] Frederick M. “Fred” Vinson Jr. was U.S. assistant attorney general for the Criminal Division from 1965 to 1969, and president of the Washington, D.C., Bar Association from 1971 to 1974. Look like good enough for me to announce—it was your appointment, but he looks like a damn good fellow. Ramsey talked to me about him, now, that young man—

He is good. Yeah, decent.

And I would just—I’d just propagandize the hell out of them. I believe 90 percent of this stuff is antics. We don’t ever do that. I’ve named top men. I’ve got more Phi Beta Kappas than anybody in the country, but we don’t let it out, so to give us an image of a wheeler-dealer political thing, and I think you ought to help turn that and show that you brought young, practical lawyers that can try lawsuits—at the same time were up at the top of their class. Here’s Ramsey Clark from the University of Chicago, but he tried day in and day out for the Texas sheriffs, the roughest of them all, and build him up as a rough lawyer, but he’s meek and mild as a mouse, and then take your Fred Vinson in Kentucky, and then move into your young man from Colorado, and then you got a—your [Edwin L.] Eddy Weisl [Jr.] of New York at Columbia . . . and just get it to where you’ve got excellence written over every brow in that department.[note 24] Edwin L. Weisl Jr. was U.S. assistant attorney general for the Lands Division from 1965 to 1967, and U.S. assistant attorney general for the Civil Division from 1967 to 1969. Weisl graduated from Columbia Law School. Have your [Jacob “Jack”] Rosenthal, give him—the one thing we want is excellence, equality, equity.[note 25] Jacob “Jack” Rosenthal was a newspaper reporter and editor for the Oregonian and later the New York Times; assistant director of public information for the Department of Justice from 1961 to 1964; director of public information for the Department of Justice from 1964 to 1967; and executive assistant to Under Secretary of State Nicholas Katzenbach from 1966 to 1967. We’re just three e’s. This is a three “e” department: excellence, equality, and equal. And I would just make them start leaking right quick. “This Katzenbach is a modest, shy guy, but he’s—he won his spurs with Johnson himself. He’s got—never been a president and attorney general more closer unless it was the Kennedy brothers. Johnson supports him in any damn thing he wants to do, and where’s what he’s done he’s moved in there in 12 hours. He had the man arrested in this woman killing.”[note 26] Viola Liuzzo was a civil rights activist from Michigan who was murdered on 25 March 1965 by members of the Ku Klux Klan after the Selma to Montgomery marches in Alabama.

[Unclear.]

“And in 12 days he has an indictment, and he’s not messing around with this stuff, and he’s not getting on any flagpoles showing his tail, but he’s—while he’s handling both the House and the Senate, and while he’s doing all these other things. Twelve hours, they had him arrested. Twelve days they had him indicted.” And I’d just have some columnist doing that. I’d get that little Rosenberg—whatever his name is—and just get him about three assistants working on these damn columns, and . [Pause.] Excellence and equality and equity: that’s what we believe in. We don’t play any politics. Biggest paper in the country, Los Angeles Times, we call it, we see them. We don’t harass people. We always welcome both sides, but we—we’re right down the middle, and if you’re innocent, you sure want to be tried by Katzenbach. If you’re guilty, you better you get you another court.

All right.

Let’s work on that, and let’s get some of this political image off of us. We’re not seeking anything. We’re not running for any office. You don’t ever have to be elected to nothing. You already made it, and whatever you want to do you can do, from the Court on in and out. But let’s—during these next three years, let’s just show them that we got a good, fine operation. There’s never been a better Justice Department anywhere.

Now, on this bill up there, I want you to get—if it’s going to be the Johnson bill, I want you to say, “We agree with this. The President and I’ve talked to him about this. He wanted to do this in the beginning. I had some doubts, and we have got a compromise.” Let’s just don’t let them do it by themselves, though. What they do—everything they do by themselves, it becomes their bill if it’s any good; if it’s bad, it’s mine. Now, I want a 50-50, and tell Dirksen that we’re willing to go with him, that you met with him everyday, and you don’t mind driving the horse with him, but I about damn sure don’t want to be in the second car in the caravan.

All right.

And have—So, we got tax really that you’re waiting on. And—

Yeah, I’ll have that settled.

What about in antitrust?

And antitrust.

Now, I want an antitrust man that is a symbol of what I want in antitrust. You know how I feel about antitrust.

Yeah.

I’m not the [Albert A. “Al”] Gore [Sr.] crusader on antitrust.[note 27] Albert A. “Al” Gore Sr. was a U.S. representative [D–Tennessee] from January 1939 to January 1953; a U.S. senator [D–Tennessee] from January 1953 to January 1971; and a member of the Senate Finance Committee. I think that we ought to advise these people how to abide by the law. We ought to get a new law on it, ought to have a great study on it and bring it up to date. And I think that we oughtn’t to just go around indicting and harassing and raising hell, we ought to make them comply with it. Then if they don’t, then I think we ought to give them the works.

Mm-hmm.

But I’d get done without lawsuits anything I could do.

Yes, Mr. President.

And I would be reasonable and moderate, but I think the best thing you could leave is have a complete revision of antitrust and next year modernize the whole damn thing, bring it right up to the 20th century, and I’ve committed to that. As you know, I don’t—

Yes, I know. [speaking over President Johnson] I haven’t gotten . . . it’s a little awkward for me to start doing that until I can get my new man.

That’s right, but bear in mind when—

Yeah.

—you get this new man—

Yes.

—that you want to get a man that’s got the jive of you and Ramsey with a big long jaw that’s quiet and that’s not a fellow of my personality. We want a fellow that’s not a persecutor or not a promoter. We want somebody that’s a judge because that image can help. You can sit down with a guy and get a lot more done and keep from scaring him with a soft voice, and that’s the kind of fellow you want to get in this job. If he’s going to have to be tough, then let’s get the right kind of personality to be tough, so he’s . . . he’s disarming, and he’s kind, and soft, and fair and judicious. And then if . . . if they have to lower the boom, we’ll lower it.

OK. I guess that’s all I wanted to—yeah?

Mr. President, on that CIA thing, did you ever consider the possibility of Lloyd Cutler on that?[note 28] Lloyd N. Cutler was a cofounding partner of the Wilmer, Cutler, and Pickering law firm in Washington, D.C., and cochair of the Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights Under Law.

We’re going to make him under secretary of Commerce, but I hadn’t. I don’t know—

[Unclear.] I just wondered. I was trying to think of people who had your . . . the qualifications you talked about, and I wondered whether he wasn’t one.

I’ll sure . . . I’ll give some thought to him—

Bright as hell and succinct, incisive and practical.

Is he liberal or conservative?

Well, he’s—

I’m a little afraid that [John T. “Jack”] Connor may be a little bit conservative, just speaking to you confidentially, and he’s going to take him as under secretary, and I don’t want to overload that damn thing.[note 29] John T. “Jack” Connor was president of the pharmaceutical giant Merck and Company, and U.S. secretary of commerce from 1965 to 1967. I don’t want to be a Wall Street—

I would’ve—I would say Lloyd Cutler would be on the liberal side.

Well, that’s good. That’ll be a good balance. That’s what we want. Well, if—we’ll check into it then for CIA [Central Intelligence Agency], but he’s going over there. [Katzenbach acknowledges.] I’m giving serious thought to moving [Alan S.] Boyd over to the CAB [Civil Aeronautics Board], but I—we really need a transportation policy more than anything else.[note 30] Alan S. Boyd was a member of the Civil Aeronautics Board since 1959 and chair from 1961 to 1965; U.S. under secretary of commerce for transportation from 1965 to 1966; U.S. secretary of transportation from November 1966 to January 1969; and president of the Illinois Central Railroad from 1969 to 1972.

Yes, we do.

Now, I wanted to call you—the reason I called you was to thank you and express my, not only appreciation, but admiration for the job you did with the New England boys. I think you’ve got to sit down with Connor and . . . and [E.] Buford Ellington [Katzenbach acknowledges], too, and help evolve a practical thing.[note 31] E. Buford Ellington was the Democratic governor of Tennessee from January 1959 to January 1963 and January 1967 to January 1971, and became director of the Office of Emergency Planning in 1965. Now, I don’t know what’s right, and I don’t want it done here. There’s no reason it doesn’t. I don’t own any oil. I don’t own any gas. Never had a share of it in my life, got nothing to do with it. But—and they don’t have the residual problem anyway. Texas doesn’t give a damn about what happens—

[Unclear]—

That’s . . . that’s what it is. But the public doesn’t think so, and the New York Times and the Washington Post and they are always—they don’t know. They’re on the side of Standard Oil here [chuckling], [Katzenbach acknowledges] and they’re raising hell about oil, and they’re on the side of Standard, and it looks to me like it’s pretty difficult to just flood . . . flood this country with a sea of imports when we’re down here on the right we got this coal problem. But they tell me that coal can’t do anything about it anyway. Now, if they can’t, I want to see that [William J.] Sweeney . . . and I wished you’d to sit down with Buford Ellington, Sweeney, and Connor, and listen to the economics as well as the legality, and let’s take that into Buford’s study and see really what this administration ought to do.[note 32] William J. Sweeney was a vice president and corporate research director for Standard Oil Company from 1947 to 1963.

I really don’t know what it ought to do. I know the power companies have got more people bought in their hip pocket than anybody. And I know what the hell—they’re raising hell in Florida, and I know how they’re raising hell in New England. Now, they—New England would be a healthy economic economy if they hadn’t been owned by the power companies all their life, and they’re still owned. So they’re raising all this hell. [Katzenbach acknowledges.] And—but New England doesn’t come with clean hands. It’s raising hell everyday about importing one watch. It’s raising hell about importing one pair of Czechoslovakia shoes. It’s raising hell about importing one woolen coat, but here they want to import everything. So I think that what you ought to do is get Connor to see if really this does have any effect on coal. If it doesn’t, I don’t see how it can help but have effect on it, but they tell me that it doesn’t—

Well, it’s less than 2 percent of [unclear]—

Well, anything, though, on a man’s dime—

No, I know. That’s a problem.

No use of us to put our taxpayers’ money in, tax a guy in Boston to go down and give a man a made work project in Charleston, West Virginia, and the same day bring in some Mexican oil.

Yeah.

That’d stop his brother from working. That just don’t make sense. Now, we got to find some answer there. So, you and Connor and Buford get together.

All right. You want Connor . . . Udall, too, don’t you? [Unclear.]

Well, yes, I guess so. But Udall is about the biggest damn fool I ever saw, how he dumped that thing over here. He just hasn’t got any judgment. And I like him. He was just my favorite. He’s been beautifying with me all over the country. [Katzenbach acknowledges.] And I just liked him. First thing, he talked too much, Nick, to everybody before he did anything.

Yeah.

Then, he got into this thing, and he found out he hadn’t talked to a lawyer.

Yeah. I think it’s undumped with the senators. Of course, I don’t think it’s undumped publicly, but I think that the senators are in pretty good shape on it. They want to solve it, but I don’t think they now think, you know, this was done for—

We never heard from coal. Coal never heard until the senators started raising hell. Then, yesterday, they moved in and started demanding to come see me. I got three letters last night. The coal policy, the . . . the attorney for the mineworkers, and [W. A.] Tony Boyle, and all of them demanding to come see me.[note 33] W. A. “Tony” Boyle was vice president of the United Mine Workers of America from 1960 to 1963, and president from 1963 to 1972. Now, they hadn’t opened their mouth until these fools got in the paper.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I’m refusing to see them so I’m going to make all them mad. But it seems to me if we can do—offset Appalachia someway, if we can make Appalachia go to work, or if we can dig this harbor and let them go to shipping coal, or if we can send somebody to Europe and get them to buy some coal, that then we can help on the residual thing. In other words, if it is true, that this imports residual doesn’t affect coal—that’s what they say. Now, I don’t believe that. I know damn well if they—if it’s costing them 40 million, that that means they’re paying 40 million more for coal. And I know that if that’s true, that affects coal, so . . . but if they can make that case, I want them to sell it to the coal policy, and then we’ll get 100 million and dig some harbors or start shipping it abroad. But I want to find some solution to the coal thing, and, anyway, I got to find the best line for the government. I don’t know what it is. Got no line now. OK.

All right.

Bye.