Yes?

Judge Thurgood Marshall in New York on 9-0.[note 3] Thurgood Marshall was a judge of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit from October 1961 to August 1965; U.S. solicitor general from August 1965 to August 1967; and associate justice of the U.S. Supreme Court from August 1967 to October 1991.

All right, I’ll see [unclear]. OK. Take this will you?

Yes, sir.[note 4] The Presidential Recordings Program revised the following section of text in 2021 for inclusion in The LBJ Telephone Tapes, a project produced by the Miller Center in partnership with the Lyndon B. Johnson Presidential Library to commemorate the library's 50th anniversary.

Hello?

Yes, sir.

Judge, how are you?

Fine, sir.

I have a . . . a rather big problem that I wanted to talk to you about.

All right.

I want you to give it some real thought because it’s . . . it’s something that I have thought about for weeks, and I think that we can’t think of how it affects us personally. We’ve got to think about the world—

Right.

—and our country—

Yes, sir.

—and our government, and then ourselves way down at the bottom of the list. I want you to be my solicitor general.

Wow.

Now, you’ll lose a lot. You lose security, and you lose the freedom that you like, and you lose the philosophizing that you can do. And I’m familiar with all those things.

The number one [unclear].

Well, I—you won’t lose any, and I want you to do it for two or three reasons. One, I want the top lawyer in the United States representing me before the Supreme Court [Marshall acknowledges throughout] to be a Negro and to be a damn good lawyer that’s done it before. That’s—so you have those peculiar qualifications.

Number two, I think it will do a lot for our image abroad and at home, too, that this is the man that the whole government has to look to to decide whether it prosecutes a case, or whether it goes up with a case, or whether it doesn’t, and so on, and so forth.

Number three, I want you to have the experience and be in the picture. I’m not discussing anything else, and I don’t want to make any other commitments, and I don’t want to imply or bribe or mislead you, but I want you to have the training and the experience of being there day after day for the next few weeks, anyway. Or maybe the next few months if you could do it.

Now, I’ve talked to [W.] Ramsey Clark, whose father [Tom C. Clark] is on the Supreme Court, and both of them have a high regard for you.[note 5] W. Ramsey Clark was U.S. assistant attorney general from 1961 to 1965; U.S. deputy attorney general from January 1965 to March 1967; acting U.S. attorney general from November 1966 to March 1967; and U.S. attorney general from March 1967 to January 1969. Tom C. Clark was U.S. assistant attorney general for the Criminal Division from 1943 to 1945; U.S. attorney general from June 1945 to July 1949; and associate justice of the U.S. Supreme Court from August 1949 to June 1967. Tom Clark retired to eliminate potential conflicts of interests after his son Ramsey became attorney general. I’ve talked to the Attorney General, [Nicholas deB.] Nick Katzenbach.[note 6] Nicholas deB. “Nick” Katzenbach was U.S. assistant attorney general from 1961 to 1962; U.S. deputy attorney general from April 1962 to January 1965; acting U.S. attorney general from September 1964 to January 1965; U.S. attorney general from February 1965 to October 1966; and U.S. under secretary of state from October 1966 to January 1969.

Right.

I’ve talked to you. Now, I haven’t talked to anybody else. I don’t want to talk to anybody else.

Right, sir.

Nobody’ll ever know I talked to you. If you decide that you can do it, I think you ought to do it for . . . for the people of the world. I just think it’ll be . . . you’ve got a great job, you’ve got lots of security, but I don’t think you’ll lose any by this. And after you do it awhile, if there’s not something better, which I would hope there would be, that you would be more amenable to, there’ll be security for you, because I’m going to be here for quite a while.[note 7] Johnson was hoping that this position would build up Marshall’s credentials and make him a strong candidate for appointment to the Supreme Court. See Conversation WH6511-01-9101. And—

That’s right. That’s right.

But I want to do this job that [Abraham] Lincoln started, and I want to do it the right way.[note 8] Abraham Lincoln was a U.S. representative [W–Illinois] from March 1847 to March 1849, and president of the United States from March 1861 until his assassination in April 1865.[note 9] End of 2021 revisions.

Well, could I have a day or so?

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. You can have all the time you want. And you think it over, and you evaluate it, and . . .

Right.

This is a nonpolitical job. It just determines what goes before that Court, and then you present it, at least all you want to and then have other people—[Archibald] Archie Cox will be going back to Harvard.[note 10] Archibald “Archie” Cox was a lawyer and author; a Harvard University law professor; U.S. solicitor general from January 1961 to July 1965; and special prosecutor in the Watergate investigation until his firing during the “Saturday Night Massacre” in October 1973. He could stay; I could ask him to stay. But I want this man to . . . I think you could see what I’m looking at, [unclear comment by Marshall] and I want to be the first president that really goes all the way.

I think that’s wonderful.

But I don’t want anybody to be able to clip me from behind. I want to do it on merit.

Right.

I want to do it without regard to politics. I want to do it without any regard to votes, because I never—I don’t want any votes. I’m not looking for votes. I’ve had the votes. I had all the votes when I needed them.

Right.

I had 15 million, and all I want to do is serve my term and do it well. But I also want to do something else. I want to leave my mark, and I want to see that justice is done, and you can be a symbol there that you can’t ever be where you are.

The answer is yes.

Well, it’s got to be. And—

Emphatically yes.

Just got to be, and you—

I appreciate it, Mr. President. I really do.

Any day or two you can come down, why, you just get on a plane and come down here, and let my people know. Just call Jack Valenti here at the White House, and we’ll make the appropriate arrangements.[note 11] Jack Valenti was a partner at Weekley and Valenti, a political and advertising consulting agency, from 1952 to 1963; special assistant to the president from 1963 to 1966; and president of the Motion Picture Association of America from 1966 to 2004.

All right, sir. I could . . . the only time I’m stuck, I’m stuck tomorrow and Friday, but I can—[if] either one of those would be better for you or Monday.

Well, I expect it’ll be better Monday or Tuesday. I’m going to be home on Friday. I’m going home [to Texas] Friday afternoon.

Yeah.

I’ll be here this Wednesday. I’ll be here Thursday and Friday, but I’ll leave after lunch. Then I’ll be there until probably Monday afternoon. I’ll be back here Tuesday. What about Tuesday?

Tuesday would be fine.

We’ll just—now, you just forget this. And—

All right.

Let me talk to you about it in detail, and we’ll work it out, and . . . you don’t know . . . I’ve thought about it for weeks. And I—

I’m all . . . I’m all for it. I’m so appreciative to be able to help.

Well, you can because you live such a life, and they’ve gone over you with a fine-tooth comb, [unclear comment by Marshall] and they could never use anything about you to thwart us, and we’re on our way now.

Wonderful!

And we’re going to move.

Right. Well, Tuesday would be fine if it’s all right with you.

All right. That’ll be fine. You have any idea what time you’d like to meet?

Oh, about any time’s all right.

What about 11:00 in the morning?

Eleven o’clock would be fine.

Thank you. Bye.

Thank you, sir. Bye.