Hello?

Hello?

Hi, my friend.

Well, hello, my friend. [chuckling] How are you doing?

Well, I hope that woman’s still living with you.[note 1] Here, President Johnson refers to Muriel Humphrey, the Vice President’s wife.

Well, she is, but she’s practically given me up.

You tell her she’s the star of the ball. That pretty family—ain’t nobody could vote against them.

Wasn’t that nice? They looked so good last night. I told her of our call, Mr. President.[note 2] The President had telephoned Humphrey shortly before midnight to congratulate him on winning the Democratic presidential nomination. She was so happy.

Well, you and I have made a mistake or two in our life, but she never tripped anything. I even saw a feature on her this morning about how she said she wasn’t running for First Lady, that she was running for Hubert Humphrey. [Both laugh.] And that she did feel like that she’d picked up a few little things on how to be First Lady, and she’d just do her best, but she’s really running for you. I thought it was the sweetest interview. I wanted to vote twice.

Aww, bless your heart. Thank you. I’ll tell her.[note 3] The Presidential Recordings Program revised the following section of text in 2021 for inclusion in The LBJ Telephone Tapes, a project produced by the Miller Center in partnership with the Lyndon B. Johnson Presidential Library to commemorate the library's 50th anniversary.

My dear friend, we’re coming down to crunch here where I got to talk to you a little bit and get some guidance on this next spot. We’ve had lots of suggestions. As you know, I met with your—some of our friends last night, some of the governors. And I’ve talked to George Meany, and I’ve talked with [Louis] Stulberg.[note 4] George Meany was president of the American Federation of Labor–Congress of Industrial Organizations (AFL–CIO) from 1955 to 1979. Louis Stulberg was president of the International Ladies’ Garment Workers’ Union from 1966 to 1975. I visited with old [James A.] Jim Farley.[note 5] James A. “Jim” Farley was chair of the New York Democratic Committee from 1930 to 1944; chair of the Democratic National Committee from 1932 to 1940; U.S. postmaster general from March 1933 to September 1940; and chair of the Coca-Cola Export Corporation from 1940 to 1973. I’ve talked to Mayor [Richard J. “Dick”] Daley and . . . oh, my goodness, who else?[note 6] Richard J. “Dick” Daley was the Democratic mayor of Chicago, Illinois, from April 1955 to December 1976. Some of the other labor boys. I’ve even talked with Walter [P.] Reuther.[note 7] Walter P. Reuther was president of United Automobile Workers (UAW) from 1946 to 1970; vice president of Congress of Industrial Organizations (CIO) from 1946 to 1952; president of CIO from 1952 to 1955; vice president of American Federation of Labor–Congress of Industrial Organizations (AFL–CIO) from 1955 to 1969; and president of Alliance for Labor Action from 1969 to 1972.

And most of them, they come out—some of them are for [R. Sargent] Shriver.[note 8] R. Sargent Shriver was director of the Peace Corps from March 1961 to February 1966; director of the Office of Economic Opportunity from October 1964 to March 1968; and U.S. ambassador to France from April 1968 to March 1970. I figured that that would bring some complications, even though he brings with him some powerful assets. The second man—the first man for many of them—was, strangely enough, [Edmund S.] Muskie [D–Maine].[note 9] Edmund S. Muskie was a U.S. senator [D–Maine] from January 1959 to May 1980, and Hubert H. Humphrey Jr.’s running mate in the 1968 presidential election. And I tend—and the other one is—that they speak well of is Fred [R.] Harris [D–Oklahoma].[note 10] Fred R. Harris was a U.S. senator [D–Oklahoma] from November 1964 to January 1973; a commissioner on the National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorders, known popularly as the Kerner Commission, from 1967 to 1968; and chair of the Democratic National Committee from 1969 to 1970. I thought he was a little young myself.[note 11] Sen. Fred Harris was 38 years old and had been elected to the Senate just four years earlier. Maybe I’m getting too old. But he’s a dynamic campaigner. I—just sitting here with [James H.] Jim Rowe [Jr.] this morning, and he said that wherever you went yesterday, why—and the day before—that the name Muskie came up.[note 12] James H. “Jim” Rowe Jr. was a lawyer; an administrative assistant to Franklin D. Roosevelt from 1939 to 1941; U.S. assistant attorney general from 1941 to 1945; and an adviser and campaign manager for Lyndon B. Johnson and Hubert H. Humphrey Jr. One other name that comes up is [Cyrus R.] Cy Vance.[note 13] Cyrus R. “Cy” Vance was U.S. secretary of the army from 1962 to 1963; U.S. deputy secretary of defense from 1964 to 1967; special representative of the president to Cyprus in 1967 and to Korea in 1968; and U.S. negotiator at the Paris Peace Talks on Vietnam from 1968 to 1969. I thought if I got elected, I might have some other things to do for him—for him to do, if he’d do them. [Pause.]

What does—what do you have to offer, my . . . my counselor? [Slight chuckle.]

Not much. I think all of those are good men. I think what you’ve got to do, as nearly as you can—every one of these guys is trying to influence you. Now, I’m not. [Humphrey acknowledges.] I don’t want to influence you, but I do want to balance you, and I’ll always do that long as I live, because I’ll try to be as good to you as you’ve been to me. The one thing I’d do is look at what I got as vice president and see where you’re going to get it.

Yeah.

Now, I just can’t improve on that. That’s not sentiment, that’s not emotion, that’s just true. You want lots of energy and go-go. You want lots of articulateness. You want a guy that, when the boss doesn’t know whether he can come or not, that he’ll tear up his speech, and laugh, and thank him for coming. You want a guy that when you got to go down into the swamps and the boss can’t go, that he’ll love to do it and be happy, even though it just cuts his toenails off. Somebody’s got to do that. Now, you’ve done it all along. You got to have somebody that’s not a coward. And when the going gets tough and everything gets rough, and it will within the year, you got to have somebody that’ll just get in a little bit closer and stay a little bit longer. [Snorts.] They got to have a wife like yours, and he’s got to have a family like yours. Got to have somebody as near as that.

Now, that’s the best dimensions I know. Who fits that I just really honestly don’t know. I know a good many that don’t fit it. You don’t want another [Henry Cabot] Lodge [Jr.] campaigning, you don’t want another [John Nance] Garner, and you don’t want another [Henry A.] Wallace, and you just cannot tell.[note 14] Here, the President cites three vice presidential candidates reputed to have caused problems for the top of the ticket. In 1960, Republican vice presidential nominee Henry Cabot Lodge, according to Theodore White, had “provoked the most intense anger of the Nixon staff” with a pledge to appoint an African American to the Cabinet if Nixon won the White House. Theodore H. White, The Making of the President 1960 (1961; repr., New York: HarperCollins E-Books, 2009), 297. John Nance Garner was the running mate of Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1932 and 1936, but the conservative Texan broke with the liberal president and challenged him for the 1940 presidential nomination. FDR won that fight and replaced Garner with liberal Henry A. Wallace, who alienated the conservatives that Garner had appealed to, leading FDR to replace Wallace in 1944 with Harry S. Truman. And what all is gold—all is not gold that glitters.

I know.[note 15] End of 2021 revisions.

And I think the one mistake you’re going to make is the same mistake I made, and I think you already made it. I think you’re going to make it every day. It’s you’re short of troops, you’re short of writers, you’re short of managers, you’re short of young, able folks. You’re short of money, primarily. It comes from your father and mother. You didn’t inherit it.

Yeah.

And, as a consequence, you’re going to have to take people who are not always as loyal as you’ve been to me, and pretty soon they’ll turn things over to another group.

I know it. That’s what I’m worried about.

And that’s the mistake that I made. If I had one thing, I wouldn’t change a word on Dominican [Republic] or Vietnam or anything else.[note 16] The Presidential Recordings Program revised the following section of text in 2021 for inclusion in The LBJ Telephone Tapes, a project produced by the Miller Center in partnership with the Lyndon B. Johnson Presidential Library to commemorate the library's 50th anniversary. If I had one thing back, I’d appoint everybody like I appointed you vice president. [Snorts.] If I had done that—started over new, why, I’d do it. Now . . . So that’s what I want you to be careful about. And this thing loyalty, Hubert, there’s not many of them that got it.

I know that.

And the vice presidency is an impossible job. No human being ought to be required to endure it four years.[note 17] End of 2021 revisions. And I don’t care how much you give him. I gave you cities. I gave you civil rights. I gave you housing studies. I gave you youth. I gave you trips. I gave you Vietnam. I gave you every damn thing. But they just make a specialty of trying to divide you and whip you, and they will do it, and they’ll tell you everyday all the mistakes the boss makes and pretty soon some of his staff will be saying, “Well, the old man didn’t screw things up, my boss would’ve done it. It’s human.” So that’s the number-one quality.

Yep. That’s right.

Now, another thing you got to have. You can’t carry this country. We’re behind now.

Yes, sir.

You just can’t carry it. I don’t know who can carry it. But if I were giving serious thought, I wouldn’t go to ambassadors much.[note 18] Sargent Shriver, brother-in-law to John, Robert, and Ted Kennedy, was LBJ’s ambassador to France at the time.

No.

I think you’ll antagonize the other group. I don’t think you’ll get much. I just—and I don’t—I think you’ll have somebody that’s got more ambition for himself—

Yes, that’s what I’ve written off.

—and—than [he] has for you. And I’ll have to say this about you: I guess you [were] always willing to be president, but I never saw any evidence of it until I told you that I couldn’t be. Now, that’s what you want. That’s what you got to bear in mind. So I would give thought to some of those that you’ve got. I think Muskie is a man of exceptional ability and stature. Now, that’s about all I know about him.

That’s it: esteem. [Unclear.]

I don’t know how much of a hot, go-go guy he is. I don’t know how manageable he’s going to be, how—or what’s going to happen on all of these things, but I think you have to keep him there on the list. The . . . and he is Catholic, and that is good. He’s Maine, and that is bad. This small state, it doesn’t offer much [Humphrey acknowledges], and it’s sectionalism. And I—and what he will be doing everyday, seven days a week, I don’t know. He’s been mighty low-key. But I think he has to stay. Then let’s go on right quick to two or three others. One name [Joseph L. Alioto] you haven’t mentioned and you may not want to, and nobody’s ever mentioned it to me—the name I mentioned to you the other day doesn’t go.[note 19] Joseph L. Alioto was the Democratic mayor of San Francisco, California, from January 1968 to January 1976. See Conversation WH6808-03-13329.

Yes, I heard that.

Yeah, it just doesn’t go. So forget that. I just wanted you to give some consideration, but I looked into it, and it doesn’t go. So so much for that.

The—I think that it’s worthy of giving a little thought to think of [T.] Hale Boggs [Sr.] [D–Louisiana].[note 20] T. Hale Boggs Sr. was a U.S. representative [D–Louisiana] from January 1941 to January 1943 and January 1947 to January 1973; House Majority Whip from January 1962 to January 1971; and House Majority Leader from January 1971 to January 1973. I don’t know of another southerner that wouldn’t irritate them, but he is loyal, and his wife is, and he’s able and he is, and he knows the area, and he’s knowledgeable, and he’s a hell of a campaigner. But if you’re not going to the South—he’s Catholic, too, and he is southern, and he is liberal, and so forth. But if you’re not going there, I would really look over the West awfully good, because I’m telling you the people got awfully fed up with the East. They’re worse than Barry [M.] Goldwater [R–Arizona] thinks, and you can do Pennsylvania and New York if anybody can do it with what we’re going to do with the Jews and what we’re going to do with the Italians by being friendly.[note 21] Barry M. Goldwater was a U.S. senator [R–Arizona] from January 1953 to January 1965 and January 1969 to January 1987, and a Republican presidential candidate in 1964. [Humphrey acknowledges.] But you got to get somebody that can appeal to these others.

Now, this would be a natural if it would work, and nobody ever mentioned it to me, but I never heard as many compliments on anybody as I did on [Daniel K.] Inouye [D–Hawaii].[note 22] Daniel K. Inouye was a U.S. representative [D–Hawaii] from August 1959 to January 1963, and a U.S. senator [D–Hawaii] from January 1963 to December 2012.

Yes, I know.

He answers Vietnam with that empty sleeve.[note 23] Sen. Inouye was a decorated veteran of the Second World War; his right forearm had been amputated after he suffered grave combat wounds. He answers your problems with [Richard M. “Dick”] Nixon with that empty sleeve.[note 24] Richard M. “Dick” Nixon was a U.S. representative [R–California] from January 1947 to December 1950; a U.S. senator [R–California] from January 1951 to January 1953; U.S. vice president from January 1953 to January 1961; GOP nominee for president in 1960; GOP candidate for governor of California in 1962; and U.S. president from January 1969 to August 1974. Both Nixon and Inouye had served in the armed forces; Humphrey had not. He has that brown face. He answers everything on civil rights, and he draws the contrast without ever opening his mouth. I’ve never known him to make a mistake. He’s got cold, clear courage. He’s as loyal as a dog, as you must have observed.

Yeah.

He’d never undercut you. He ought to appeal to the West. He ought to appeal to the world. It would be fresh and different. He’s young and new. It’s something that ought to be considered, and I think that your secretary could call him, like [W.] Marvin Watson does and say, “Would you please go over to Utah, South Carolina, San Francisco?”[note 25] W. Marvin Watson was White House appointments secretary from February 1965 to April 1968, and U.S. postmaster general from April 1968 to January 1969. And I believe he could go to all of them and never lay an egg.

Yeah, I think that’s right.

Nobody ever mentioned it to me, but I just saw him. And Lady Bird [Johnson] said—watched him on television—she said that “this is the best man I know of, except Hubert.”[note 26] Lady Bird Johnson (née Claudia Alta Taylor) was the wife of Lyndon B. Johnson since 1934, and first lady of the United States from November 1963 to January 1969. One—of all the folks we’ve come out with. He’s asked nothing. He’s done nothing, but he wouldn’t be miserable in the place. Now, another fellow will be and will be lazy and other things. So I would consider Boggs, and I’d consider him. I’d consider Muskie. The—[J.] Terry Sanderford [sic, Sanford] would be good.[note 27] J. Terry Sanford was the Democratic governor of North Carolina from January 1961 to January 1965; Democratic campaign manager for the 1968 presidential election; and president of Duke University from 1969 to 1985. He’s been loyal, but I understand the southern boys think he’s too liberal. I wouldn’t irritate them any more than I had to. They all love—they all love Inouye.

Yeah.

I don’t know why. But they all—they just—I think one thing is that they just look at him and see that he—they can’t fuss at him and say he doesn’t love peace. God knows he wants peace more than anybody, and it’s quite a contrast with [Spiro T. “Ted”] Agnew and [the] civil rights thing and Nixon, and I just don’t think that any Jew or any Pole or any Italian or anybody else—in other words, the South can’t get mad at him because [of] his color, and he would appeal to every other minority because he is one.[note 28] Spiro T. “Ted” Agnew was the Republican governor of Maryland from January 1967 to January 1969, and vice president of the United States from January 1969 to October 1973.

Yeah.

There’s . . . And that’s about all that I can think of that—I like Harris very much. I’d be for Harris. Harris would help us as much as anybody in our state except [John B.] Connally.[note 29] John B. Connally was U.S. secretary of the navy from January 1961 to December 1961; Democratic governor of Texas from January 1963 to January 1969, during which time he was wounded in the assassination of President Kennedy; and U.S. secretary of the treasury from February 1971 to May 1972. Connally was one of Lyndon Johnson’s closest advisers, joining Johnson’s congressional staff in 1938 and managing Johnson’s campaign for the 1960 Democratic presidential nomination. I love Connally. I think he’s able and attractive, and you—I gather that what they said—they have problems, and I would not urge anybody from my own state because you know that situation as well as I do.

Yeah.

But Harris would do more to help in this area than nearly anybody.

Uh-huh.

Now, if he gets too much of the Kerner Commission on him, why, it won’t help a damn bit.[note 30] Harris had cowritten the report of the President’s Commission on Civil Disorders, chaired by Governor Otto Kerner [D–Illinois]. Its mandate was to find out what had caused the riots of 1967 and what could be done to prevent future disturbances. Its finding as to the cause—white racism—and its recommended solutions—open housing laws, 2 million new private and public sector jobs, early childhood education, and other federal initiatives—proved highly controversial. Vincent J. Burke, “City Riots Laid to White Racism,” Los Angeles Times, 1 March 1968. But he deserves something, and he’s a go-go guy, and he’s helpful. If I had to make the decision, those would be the four, and then I just guess I’d go West. I’m not going to go East unless it’s the only one and if you feel more comfortable and down the road you think you are, I think you have to be satisfied.

Yeah.

And I don’t want you to feel like you got to satisfy me.

You don’t think—what do you think about Harris’s age and youth and all?

I think it’s an advantage. I think it’s an advantage. I think both of us are too old in the modern thing. I think you love people more than everybody in this country but me, but I think they use it against us, and I think that this just cuts the guts out of them, the nuts out of them. I don’t think anybody could blame you. I don’t know anything about his record. I don’t know what he did. I don’t know whether any pawnshop fellows gave him any contributions or what happened in Oklahoma. [Humphrey acknowledges.] That’s something you have to just take a little look at.

Yeah.

And when you get down to one or two, I’ll take a look at it right quick for you. I did on some of these others, and it’s not good. [Humphrey acknowledges.] And we had a clearance before I even talked to you. But when you look at it a little bit different, why, we found some associations. And you just—

I think we ought to take a good look at Fred and at Muskie. I think that’s about the two that I’d be drawing from. [Pause.] Have I got somebody here I can talk to about that?

Yes, I’ll do it and get—I’ll get back to you in 30 minutes.

All right.

Just as soon as they can look at it.

Fine.

Inouye doesn’t appeal to you?

Well, I just don’t believe so. He does, Mr. President, but I guess maybe it just takes me a little too far, too fast. [chuckling] Old, conservative Humphrey.

Well, now, he’s not a con—a rad—

I mean, I was speaking lightly about myself. I said that it just takes me a little bit too far, too fast.

Well, I think of the two—I don’t know. I haven’t ever looked at his record. I don’t know what it is. But I think of the two, these are the strong points of the two. I think Muskie is judicious and will balance your effervescence and will appeal to . . . some of the . . . Kennedy folks and the eastern folks that you want to appeal to to get their support. I think that he is a strong person. On Harris, I think that Harris will get you more votes in this area [Humphrey acknowledges] than anybody else. Now, I don’t know . . . I don’t know others. I’ll call you back on both of those and either one of those would be—I could campaign for [Humphrey attempts to interject] and could be for, and I’m not going to do anything you don’t want me to do. I’m going to let you call the signal. I’m not going to butt in and try to be a brother-in-law or a grandpa or a daddy to—

But I asked your counsel on this, Mr. President. That isn’t you butting in at all. It’s that I, frankly, need to have your help.

I’ll get back to you on these two, and . . .

All right.

I would think of everybody else now, and you apply your own standards.

Yes, sir.

And Muriel [Humphrey]’s standards.[note 31] Muriel Humphrey (née Buck) was the wife of Hubert H. Humphrey Jr.; second lady of the United States from January 1965 to January 1969; and a U.S. senator [D–Minnesota] from January 1978 to November 1978.

Yes, sir.

And see that when she’s going to drop out, the head star gets sick, who’s going to do what Muriel has done?

Yeah.

And who’s going to do what you’ve done. You got to look at that pretty close, and I would certainly do something that labor wanted. And I would do something that would really give me no questions with civil rights. And I’d give me something that would give me no questions with the South, [Humphrey acknowledges] because you just can’t write them all off.

No, I don’t want to do that, and I’ve met with them, and I—

You’ve got to get Kentucky, and you’ve got to get Oklahoma. Those are going to be key states for you.

Yeah.

OK.

By the way, I just wanted you to know that our boys, your Texas boys came through great. They did a good job, and we appreciate it very much. And we tried to stick with them after we got back on the track here.

Well, the other day—the other morning I talked to a good many folks very quietly, and I asked one that’s catching a lot of abuse today. But I said if Connally and [E. Buford] Ellington and [Robert E. “Bob”] McNair [Sr.] and these boys would do this, “Can’t you—haven’t you got the horsepower to do this thing and do it right, regardless of what comes from the East or drafts or anything else?”[note 32] E. Buford Ellington was the Democratic governor of Tennessee from January 1959 to January 1963 and January 1967 to January 1971, and became director of the Office of Emergency Planning in 1965. Robert E. “Bob” McNair Sr. was the Democratic governor of South Carolina from April 1965 to January 1971. LBJ refers to a phone call with Chicago mayor Richard J. “Dick” Daley (see Conversation WH6808-03-13326). Governors John Connally of Texas, Buford Ellington of Tennessee, and Robert NcNair of South Carolina all ended their favorite-son candidacies for the Democratic presidential nomination the day before, freeing their states’ delegates to vote for Humphrey on the first ballot. Roy Reed, “Humphrey Gains Support in the South,” New York Times, 28 August 1968. And he said, “I have,” and I said, “Then, by God, do it!” [Humphrey acknowledges and chuckles.] And [slight chuckle] that . . . that was a wonderful thing, and I think it just handled right. And I’ve sat here and watched it. Paid no—had nothing to do with it, and . . . but I’m—I couldn’t have—couldn’t be happier at everything, and I just want to do everything I can to make your victory possible. And you’re just one part of it now.

All right, well, you’ll get back to me in the next 30 minutes or so, right?

Yeah, the best thing we can do together is try to get you peace before November.

That’s right.

Now, you have laid the groundwork with the platform. Be careful. Don’t say anything that runs away from it.

Don’t worry.

But let us then go into Hanoi and say, “Now, goddamn it, you’re not going to get any better from Nixon. He’s going to be worse. And you’re not going to get any better from Humphrey. He’s going to be worse. Let’s get peace.” And you wrap that up. You have a landslide.

That’s what it takes.

OK.

God bless you. Thank you.