Hello?

Mr. President?

Yes, Ramsey.

[Cartha D.] Deke [DeLoach] has called back.[note 1] Cartha D. “Deke” DeLoach worked for the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) from 1928 to 1970; was assistant director of the Crime Records Division from 1959 to 1965; and served as assistant to FBI director J. Edgar Hoover from 1965 to 1970. He says that we’ve never conducted any investigations or had occasion to on any of these three men. There’s nothing derogatory that they are aware of on any of the three, that their relationships have been cordial with each of the three. They’ve all been sound on law enforcement. It’s not been possible to make any IRS [Internal Revenue Service] check. It [unclear] be done within the next few hours.[note 2] Clark may have said “could” or “couldn’t.” It would also be likely to stir up speculation. [President Johnson acknowledges throughout.] In substance, then, there’s nothing derogatory known to the FBI that it was able to recall. I would be . . . quite confident about them. I hear a lot of things about a lot of people down here, and I’ve never heard anything about any of these three. I would . . .

Well, now, if you had added to that [Carl E.] Sanders [Sr.] and [J. Terry] Sanderford [sic, Sanford] of North Carolina, how would you rate those on your list if you were doing the rating?[note 3] Carl E. Sanders Sr. was the Democratic governor of Georgia from January 1963 to January 1967. J. Terry Sanford was the Democratic governor of North Carolina from January 1961 to January 1965; Democratic campaign manager for the 1968 presidential election; and president of Duke University from 1969 to 1985.

I would rate them [Edmund S.] Muskie [D–Maine], [Fred R.] Harris [D–Oklahoma], [Daniel K.] Inouye [D–Hawaii]—[note 4] Edmund S. Muskie was a U.S. senator [D–Maine] from January 1959 to May 1980, and Hubert H. Humphrey Jr.’s running mate in the 1968 presidential election. Fred R. Harris was a U.S. senator [D–Oklahoma] from November 1964 to January 1973; a commissioner on the National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorders, known popularly as the Kerner Commission, from 1967 to 1968; and chair of the Democratic National Committee from 1969 to 1970. Daniel K. Inouye was a U.S. representative [D–Hawaii] from August 1959 to January 1963, and a U.S. senator [D–Hawaii] from January 1963 to December 2012.

Wait a minute. [Long pause.]

Then the guy from North Carolina, then Carl Sanders.

Why do you rate Sanders so low?

Well, he’s attractive, and he’s able, but I don’t . . . I don’t think he understands propriety. I think he overreaches, and I think he’s awfully interested in money.

Mm-hmm. [Pause.] Why do you rate Inouye below Harris?

I think Harris has got tremendous growth capacity. I think he’s one of the strongest, most promising young men I’ve known. I think he’ll be a power around here for years. I think he’s got about as good political judgment as I’ve seen in a young guy like that. Far superior to a [Joseph D.] Joe Tydings [D–Maryland] or [Edward M.] Ted Kennedy [D–Massachusetts] or any of those guys.[note 5] Joseph D. “Joe” Tydings was a U.S. senator [D–Maryland] from January 1965 to January 1971. Edward M. “Teddy” Kennedy was a U.S. senator [D–Massachusetts] from November 1962 until his death on 25 August 2009, and Senate Democratic Whip from January 1969 to January 1971. I think he needs a broadening. I think Inouye is a great heart and spirit, but I think he’s developed about as far as he’ll go. I haven’t seen—and I like him very much—but I just haven’t seen the growth capacity or the greatness that I think you could hope for from Fred Harris.

Mm-hmm. And Muskie?

I think Muskie . . . is a . . . sensitive, strong, quiet man of principle. [A baby cries and shrieks in the background at various points throughout rest of the recording.] I think he’s loyal and would work quietly and effectively. I think he does his own thinking, and he has his own mind. And—but I think he has qualities of greatness about him like only a handful in the Senate do.

Like what?

I think he has qualities of greatness in him that would be equaled by only a handful in the Senate.

Yeah, yes.

He’s got a breadth of experience.

Yeah, I just—my hearing’s a little bad. You said, “quality of greatness” and then your voice dropped, and I didn’t get that. Yes, I agree with that. I agree with that. I think that’s a pretty good evaluation of all of them.[note 6] The Presidential Recordings Program revised the following section of text in 2021 for inclusion in The LBJ Telephone Tapes, a project produced by the Miller Center in partnership with the Lyndon B. Johnson Presidential Library to commemorate the library's 50th anniversary.

What happened in Chicago [Illinois] last night? Anybody get killed?

No, nobody got killed. A lot of people got hurt.

What—how did they get hurt? Hit with rocks or with clubs or what?

Well, I’d say nine out of ten got hurt by excessive police action. Hit with clubs.

And what were they doing?

A lot of them were, you know, troublemakers, but I’d say more than that, they were people who were just standing there and got caught in the thing. They were observers. They were middle-aged ladies pushed through plate glass windows, [slight chuckle] ’cause they just happened to be standing there. There were kids that would give a Bronx cheer, and three or four policemen would lay on them and just beat the hell out of them, and then not even arrest them. [Pause.] It was a very disgusting performance in my judgment, Mr. President. I think I had awfully good intelligence on it. I think it was caused by law enforcement. Absolutely unnecessary. I think logistically their problem was a cinch. My God, they outnumbered them, [chuckles] could outmaneuver them. If they’d acted with balance, there wouldn’t have been any trouble.

How many got hurt?

Oh, I’d say 2[00] or 300.

How—anybody serious?

No, not that I know of. [President Johnson acknowledges.] By that I mean no critical injury that threatens life.

Did you get incensed any at the subjectivity of the networks?

Yes. Particularly because they were . . . well, subjectivity gets it. [Scoffs.] I mean, they don’t—they were ignorant! They don’t know what the hell they’re mad about. I thought [Walter L.] Cronkite [Jr.] and several of them were just, you know, quite unreasoning.[note 7] Walter L. Cronkite Jr. was a television journalist and news anchor for CBS Evening News from 1962 to 1981. I don’t believe they—you know, I think if they’d known all the truth, two-thirds of their feeling might have been justified. But I don’t think they knew the truth, and I think . . . they . . . were not performing professionally.

[Slight pause.] Thank you, my friend.

Yes, sir.

Bye.[note 8] End of 2021 revisions.

Waiting.

Operator.