Hello?

How old are you today?

[Laughs heartily.] Well, I’m older than you are.

The hell you . . . [Laughs.]

[Laughs heartily.] Glad to hear you. How are you getting along?

Oh, not too bad. I’m privileged to spend one day in town.

Oh, I’m so glad that you got away from it all.

Oh, hell, I didn’t dare go out there.

Looks like your opponent’s been working for you.

[Chuckles.] Maybe so. I see he’s made a pitch for [George S.] McGovern [D–South Dakota].[note 1] George S. McGovern was a U.S. representative [D–South Dakota] from January 1957 to January 1961; director of Food for Peace from January 1961 to July 1962; a U.S. senator [D–South Dakota] from January 1963 to January 1981; and the Democratic U.S. presidential nominee in 1972.

Yes, he made a big one. I talked to [Richard J. “Dick”] Daley about it the other day, and he’s been quite disappointed in him, and I think he’s just as glad that he did this.[note 2] Richard J. “Dick” Daley was the Democratic mayor of Chicago, Illinois, from April 1955 to December 1976.

Yeah. Maybe so.

Daley is not anti-Dirksen.

Well, I’m sure he isn’t.

No. [Chuckles.]

[Slight chuckle.] Tell me, how do you feel?

I couldn’t feel better, Everett.

Well, I’m so glad.

I just—

The intestinal trouble hasn’t been bothering you?

Well, we have some problems with it. We have no pain, no discomfort, no nothing, but [Dirksen acknowledges] we have this little diverticulitis, they say, every . . . we don’t—everyone has a little problem, but it’s just in x-rays and it’s been there since ’55—

Yeah, it’s a difficult thing to deal with.

Well, it has no pain, no notice. All it does is show in x-ray picture every three or four years, and there’s been no difference in them.

Uh-huh.

So—

I’m very, very glad indeed.

—we think that’s going to be all right.

Yeah. Are you any closer [chuckling] to going out there to the [unclear]—

No, no. I haven’t made any plans to go and rather doubt that I will. I don’t know. I might change my mind, but I haven’t made any plans to go, and I don’t know what to contribute. I think the—they’ll have a big knock-down, drag-out with the pacifists and the fellows on—

Oh, I suppose so.

—that Hanoi has been working on, but I don’t—looks like the vote was pretty good.[note 3] The Democratic platform committee had defeated a plank calling for an “unconditional halt” of American bombing of North Vietnam by a vote of 62 to 35. John W. Finney, “Vietnam Plank Supports Johnson on War Policies,” New York Times, 27 August 1968. President Johnson opposed a bombing halt unless North Vietnam met three conditions, including (1) respecting the demilitarized zone dividing Vietnam, (2) sitting down in Paris with representatives of the South Vietnamese government to discuss peace terms, and (3) ending mortar attacks on civilian population centers in South Vietnamese cities.

Yeah.

They took [Edward M. “Teddy”] Kennedy [D–Massachusetts] and [Eugene J. “Gene”] McCarthy [DFL–Minnesota] and McGovern, and they wrapped all their doves up together, and they couldn’t get but 30 votes.[note 4] Edward M. “Teddy” Kennedy was a U.S. senator [D–Massachusetts] from November 1962 until his death on 25 August 2009, and Senate Democratic Whip from January 1969 to January 1971. Eugene J. “Gene” McCarthy was a U.S. representative [DFL–Minnesota] from January 1949 to January 1959, and a U.S. senator [DFL–Minnesota] from January 1959 to January 1971.

Yeah.

And they—

What’s the late word from Paris?

Uh . . . nothing. They’re waiting to see if they can have a better deal with anybody that they select. They . . . they know that they can’t get a better one from me.

Yeah.

They know they can’t get a better one from [Richard M. “Dick”] Nixon.[note 5] Richard M. “Dick” Nixon was a U.S. representative [R–California] from January 1947 to December 1950; a U.S. senator [R–California] from January 1951 to January 1953; U.S. vice president from January 1953 to January 1961; GOP nominee for president in 1960; GOP candidate for governor of California in 1962; and U.S. president from January 1969 to August 1974.

That’s right.

So they’re trying to play this other side. [Dirksen acknowledges throughout.] And I can tell you this—this would ruin us if it got out, but to show you their attitude: the Pope [Paul VI] sent his man over, and he came to the Ranch, and he wanted to propose that he go from Bogota to Hanoi and then to Saigon, and that he would say to them that [if] we would stop the bombing, they would do certain things.[note 6] Pope Paul VI was bishop of Rome and head of the Roman Catholic Church from June 1963 until his death on 6 August 1978. We told him that we’d be enthusiastically for his doing that, and we would do anything that was reasonable. So he was very pleased and went back and next—a few days ago, he came back and said they wouldn’t let him in Hanoi. They just told him to go to hell. [Dirksen laughs.] At the proper time, I think, after we get the conventions out of the way, that he might let that leak out. It’d be a mistake if he didn’t, but—if he did, but—if we did, but I think that that pretty well reflects their present attitude. They’re hoping that somebody that’ll insist on a coalition government or somebody that’ll insist on stopping the bombing.

Now, the one thing that nobody has said that ought to be said, and I’d thought you’d have said it, but you got in a hurry the other night—

I did say it!

—to get [T.] Hale Boggs [D–Louisiana] back.[note 7] T. Hale Boggs Sr. was a U.S. representative [D–Louisiana] from January 1941 to January 1943 and January 1947 to January 1973; House Majority Whip from January 1962 to January 1971; and House Majority Leader from January 1971 to January 1973. But the one thing that ought to be said is that . . . back in the days of World War II, a lot of folks used to say [R.] Ewing Thomason—I remember when he was running [the House] Military Affairs [Committee], old [Andrew J.] Andy May couldn’t handle it, and Ewing was running it—and he got up and said, “You have to trust somebody on calling these signals,” when they were raising hell about the Battle of the Bulge and about these crates that they were flying and about everything else.[note 8] R. Ewing Thomason was a U.S. representative [D–Texas] from March 1931 to July 1947; a judge of the U.S. District Court for the Western District of Texas from July 1947 to June 1963; and a senior judge of the U.S. District Court for the Western District of Texas from June 1963 until his death on 8 November 1973. Andrew J. “Andy” May was a U.S. representative [D–Kentucky] from March 1931 to January 1947, and chair of the House Committee on Military Affairs from 1939 to 1947. [Dirksen acknowledges.] And [Dwight D.] Eisenhower just made a hell of a mistake.[note 9] Dwight D. Eisenhower was a five-star general of the U.S. Army; governor of the American Zone of Occupied Germany from May 1945 to November 1945; chief of staff of the U.S. Army from November 1945 to February 1948; Supreme Allied Commander in Europe from April 1951 to May 1952; president of Columbia University from 1948 to 1953; and president of the United States from January 1953 to January 1961. Ewing used to say, “You have to trust somebody, and who can you trust better than General [George C.] Marshall [Jr.]?”[note 10] Gen. George C. Marshall Jr. was a U.S. army officer from 1902 to 1951; chief of staff of the U.S. Army from September 1939 to November 1945; U.S. secretary of state from January 1947 to January 1949; president of the American Red Cross from October 1949 to December 1950; U.S. secretary of defense from September 1950 to September 1951; and recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize in 1953 for his role in developing the Marshall Plan for reviving the European postwar economy.

Yeah.

Now, on strategy and tactics and deployments, we have to look to somebody, and who can you trust better than [Creighton W.] Abrams?[note 11] Gen. Creighton W. Abrams was assistant deputy chief of staff and director of operations at the Office of the Deputy Chief of Staff for Operations from 1962 to 1963; deputy commander of the U.S. Military Assistance Command, Vietnam (MACV) from May 1967 to June 1968; and commander of MACV from June 1968 to June 1972.

Yes.

He is not a man that’s ever had one ounce of politics. [Dirksen acknowledges throughout.] I’d guess he’s a Republican, the way he looks and acts and tough as he is, but I don’t know what he is and don’t care. He says two things that are very significant. I didn’t tell him how I felt. He didn’t know how I felt. I just sent him a wire and said, “Would you give me your recommendations? What would happen if we temporarily stopped the bombing?”

Now, he said in reply to that two things that are significant: “One, they would increase their capability fivefold.” Now, increase capability fivefold. “Number two, if they did increase capability fivefold in ten days, I would have to move your son-in-law [Charles S. “Chuck” Robb] and the rest of them out of the I Corps area and go back to—go back South.”[note 12] Charles S. “Chuck” Robb was the husband of Lynda Bird Johnson Robb and the son-in-law of Lyndon B. and Lady Bird Johnson. Retreat, in other words. Now, how any commander in chief can do that? I don’t know, when his chief military commanders say that—that’s what [Richard B.] Dick Russell [Jr.] [D–Georgia] said the other night—I just don’t know.[note 13] Richard B. “Dick” Russell Jr. was a U.S. senator [D–Georgia] from January 1933 to January 1971; chair of the Senate Armed Services Committee from January 1951 to January 1953 and January 1955 to January 1969; and chair of the Senate Appropriations Committee from January 1969 to January 1971. He would just murder himself.

Now, how McCarthy and McGovern—I don’t believe they’d do it if they were president.

Yeah.

And, of course, that in itself caused Hubert [H. Humphrey Jr.] to get—stand up there a little bit, and with all of them working on him.[note 14] Hubert H. Humphrey Jr. was the Democratic mayor of Minneapolis, Minnesota, from July 1945 to November 1948; a U.S. senator [D–Minnesota] from January 1949 to December 1964 and January 1971 to January 1978; Senate Majority Whip from January 1961 to December 1964; vice president of the United States from January 1965 to January 1969; and the Democratic U.S. presidential candidate in 1968. And now he has said that until—just what Nixon said: unless—they’d stop the bombing when they could do it without endangering any of our lives and when they made a response.

Yeah.

And so that ought to be out. It ought to be out today. I don’t want to put it out, because then they say, well, I’m using Abrams. But if somebody else says in our briefing, “General Abrams said last Thursday, in response to a request [Dirksen acknowledges throughout], that if you stop the bombing, you would endanger American lives and you’d increase the enemy’s capability fivefold, and you’d force him to move back into I Corps.” Now, in that light, we can’t do that. Now, if they’ll stop sending them through there or—you see, Abrams says on July the 15th, he had 1,000 trucks that were coming. He’s got that cut down to 150 now.

A day?

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, that’s a week.

A week?

A week.

Oh, yeah.

A thousand a week, and he got it cut to 150.

Yeah.

Out of 150, he’s knocking out about 25.

Yeah.

But the reason the others are not coming is because they can’t come, except at night, and he’s knocking them out when they do come. [Dirksen acknowledges throughout.] So he’s says that if you stopped it, you’d have 1,000 coming immediately. And instead of it taking three days to get down there, they could do it in one day. And that they’d have them loaded with a lot more equipment, a lot more men, a lot more everything.

Now, that’s where we are, so that’s so much for Paris.

I think that we’ll have a big bloodletting, and fight back and forth as we always do.[note 15] Here, President Johnson shifts the conversation back to the Democratic National Convention. Last—’64, I had it for two days, the damn Freedom [Democratic] Party in Mississippi. I think we’ll do that, and I—my guess is they’ll wind up nominating Humphrey. They’re going to try to nominate Teddy.

Yeah.

And the peaceniks are going to do that, and . . . my guess is, though, that they won’t succeed. [Dirksen acknowledges.] My guess is that [John M.] Bailey and [John B.] Connally and the rest of them about tomorrow will come out for Humphrey.[note 16] John M. Bailey was chairman of the Democratic National Committee from 1961 to 1968. John B. Connally was U.S. secretary of the navy from January 1961 to December 1961; Democratic governor of Texas from January 1963 to January 1969, during which time he was wounded in the assassination of President Kennedy; and U.S. secretary of the treasury from February 1971 to May 1972. Connally was one of Lyndon Johnson’s closest advisers, joining Johnson’s congressional staff in 1938 and managing Johnson’s campaign for the 1960 Democratic presidential nomination.

Yeah. Well, that’s the way I told you it would be.

Now, Teddy’s people are all working. He’s got [Pierre E. G.] Salinger and [Theodore C. “Ted”] Sorensen, and they’ve put McGovern in as stalking horse.[note 17] Pierre E. G. Salinger was White House press secretary from January 1961 to March 1964, and a U.S. senator [D–California] from August 1964 to December 1964. Theodore C. “Ted” Sorensen was a speechwriter and special assistant to the president from 1961 to 1964; author of a best-selling biography of John F. Kennedy in 1965; an adviser for Robert F. Kennedy’s presidential campaign in 1968; and an attorney and senior counsel at Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton and Garrison in New York City from 1966 until his death in 2010. [President Johnson takes a drink, swallowing the “s” sound in “horse.”] [Dirksen acknowledges throughout.] They got two big delegations, New York and California, to build on.[note 18] The Presidential Recordings Program revised the following section of text in 2021 for inclusion in The LBJ Telephone Tapes, a project produced by the Miller Center in partnership with the Lyndon B. Johnson Presidential Library to commemorate the library's 50th anniversary.

So what’s this I hear about you pulling in your horns on [Abraham “Abe”] Fortas?[note 19] Abraham “Abe” Fortas was an associate justice on the U.S. Supreme Court from 1965 to 1969, and a longtime friend and adviser to Lyndon Johnson. I thought we were going to confirm him.

I didn’t pull my horns—

Well, they said your staff said that you were going to be gone, and that you couldn’t do much more, and that—

Oh, [unclear]—

—Fortas wouldn’t be confirmed, and—

I just got a few dates set for September, but I’ll be here.

I’ve told Fortas and these folks that you were going to see he’s confirmed, and, by God, I want you to stand up there and slug it out.

Yeah. Well, I don’t know what the hell [James O.] Jim [Eastland]’s [D–Mississippi] intentions are.[note 20] James O. “Jim” Eastland was a U.S. senator [D–Mississippi] from January 1943 to December 1978, and chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee from 1956 to December 1978.

Well, why don’t you take charge and find out?

[Chuckles.] I can’t take charge of Jim and [Samuel J.] Sam Ervin [D–North Carolina] and John [L.] McClellan [D–Arkansas], because they’re all—and [J.] Strom Thurmond [R–South Carolina]—they’re hostile, and, of course, [Hiram L.] Fong [R–Hawaii] is hostile, too, as you know . . . so I just take them in the stride.[note 21] Samuel J. “Sam” Ervin Jr. was a U.S. senator [D–North Carolina] from June 1954 to December 1974; a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee; and chair of the Senate Watergate Committee from February 1973 to June 1974. John L. McClellan was a U.S. senator [D–Arkansas] from January 1943 to November 1977; chair of the Senate Government Operations Committee from 1949 to 1953 and 1955 to 1972; chair of the Senate Appropriations Committee from 1972 to 1977; and chief sponsor of the Select Committee on Improper Activities in the Labor and Management Field. J. Strom Thurmond was a U.S. senator [D–South Carolina] from December 1954 to April 1956 and November 1956 to September 1964, and [R–South Carolina] from September 1964 to January 2003. Hiram L. Fong was a U.S. senator [R–Hawaii] from August 1959 to January 1977. By the way, while you’re on—

Well, are you less optimistic than you were?

Huh?

Are you less optimistic about Fortas than you were?

Well . . .

Do you think these folks want [Earl] Warren to go back on that bench?[note 22] Earl Warren was chief justice of the U.S. Supreme Court from October 1953 to June 1969.

Huh?

Do you think they want Warren to go back?

Oh, Christ, I don’t want him to go back.

Now, you think they do?

I don’t know. I don’t know. That’d be [slight chuckle] the greater evil, God knows. And I’m [unclear], and I’ll do my best.

OK. All right.[note 23] End of 2021 revisions. What—

I started to tell you.

Yeah?

You know that you’ve got a Democratic vacancy on FCC [Federal Communications Commission].

Yes, sir. We sure have.

Not a damn guy on there who knows anything about the telephone business, so these telephone people were in my ear. [A news report about the “Czech people” plays loudly in the background.] Vice President [unclear], he said there’s a fellow out in Illinois who is chairman of the Illinois Commission for Utilities. His name is [James W.] Karber.[note 24] James W. Karber was chair of the Illinois Commerce Commission from July 1961 to March 1969.

Yeah.

K-A-R-B-E-R.

Yeah.

They said he was one of the most knowledgeable guys they ever encountered. He has been chairman of the National Association of Utilities Commissioners. They say he really knows his business, and he’s moderate in his views, and would be the ideal guy to go on that commission, so I gave [James R.] Jim Jones a little note on him.[note 25] James R. “Jim” Jones was White House appointments secretary from April 1968 to January 1969, and a U.S. representative [D–Oklahoma] from January 1973 to January 1987.

Yeah, he told me about it. They have told me—they’ve got him branded now. I think they’d just murder us if we named a telephone man to it, because they’ve lobbied with every damn human in the country. They’ve had every—

He’s not a telephone man.

No, but I mean he is their—they’re sponsoring him, and when you get into that, you know what problems I get into [Dirksen acknowledges throughout] in our own party and other places. I’ve tried to get somebody that had no connection with anybody that would be a moderate person. I think I’ve got one over at the AID [Agency for International Development] agency, but the telephone company got into this damn lobbying, and they’ve gone to everybody with this fellow out there. They’ve had my friends down here call me, and I’ve told them it was a mistake. I think that you would have all the liberal people in our party just tear up things if they thought that I was naming a utility commissioner to this job that was sponsored by AT&T. I just believe that it would give us lots of trouble on—trouble. What I’d hoped to do is name this fellow [H. Rex] Lee who is an educational expert—[note 26] H. Rex Lee was governor of American Samoa from May 1961 to August 1967 and May 1977 to January 1978, and education commissioner on the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) from October 1968 to December 1973.

Yeah, but they say he doesn’t know [chuckling] a goddamn thing about communications.

Well, I don’t . . . I don’t agree with that. I—there’s never been anybody on there that’s been much of an expert. I think that Rosel [H.] Hyde’s about as good a man as they’ve ever had, [Dirksen acknowledges throughout] and I think [Robert E.] Bob Lee’s a good man.[note 27] Rosel H. Hyde was a commissioner of the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) from April 1946 to October 1969; acting chair of the FCC from April 1954 to October 1954 and May 1966 to June 1966; and chair of the FCC from April 1953 to April 1954 and June 1966 to October 1969. Robert E. “Bob” Lee was a commissioner of the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) from October 1953 to June 1981. I think they’re just using that to try to get their own man. Now, this boy is able, and he’s solid, and he’s not—he hasn’t worked for the telephone company, and he hasn’t been a regulator, but nobody else has when they start. They all have to learn, and I believe that he would be fairer than anybody else. I’m just fearful—[speaking aside] Jake, get out in front of that TV there—[to Dirksen] so I’ll talk to you about when I get back.[note 28] “Jake” is unidentified, but was likely Congressman James J. “Jake” Pickle [D–Texas], with whom Johnson had lunch at one o’clock on this day, according to the Presidential Daily Diary. I’m not going to nominate anybody down here, but I’m committed to the other fellow, and I’ve told them that. And they’re just scared to death on account of [Nicholas] Nick Johnson, and I think they got a right to be, and I’m not going to try to pick somebody that will crusade against them.[note 29] Nicholas “Nick” Johnson was a commissioner of the Federal Communications Commission from July 1966 to December 1973. And now they got a task force down there that is making a lot of crazy recommendations, but I think I’ve got that well in hand. I’m going to try to see that they just don’t do anything that’s wild and unreasonable, and I think I can. But I would doubt the wisdom of just going out and picking somebody like that.

I think, though, that what we have to do is get somebody that we all think will be a reasonable person that we can put through without any fight, and that means that you and [Norris H.] Cotton [R–New Hampshire] and your people will have to be satisfied, the [Thruston B.] Mortons [R–Kentucky] and the damned other folks, because their inclination will be to want to hold it up.[note 30] Norris H. Cotton was a U.S. senator [R–New Hampshire] from November 1954 to December 1974 and August 1975 to September 1975. Thruston B. Morton was a U.S. senator [R–Kentucky] from January 1957 to December 1968, and a member of the Senate Finance Committee. And I have not held up y’all’s people. I named [Rosel] Hyde as chairman, and I named Bob Lee, and I have put—I’ve forgotten who the other Republican—[James J. “Jerry”] Jim Wadsworth.[note 31] James J. “Jerry” Wadsworth was deputy chief of the U.S. delegation to the United Nations from 1953 to 1960; U.S. ambassador to the United Nations from September 1960 to January 1961; and a member of the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) from May 1965 to October 1969. I’ve named three Republicans without any question, and I don’t want them holding up mine, and you’ve told me you wouldn’t. But I want to get somebody that’s fair. I don’t want to get somebody that’s mean, and I’m not going to get somebody that tries to wreck American industry.

Yeah. OK.

God bless you.

Yeah. Bye.

Bye.

Yes, please? Yes, please? Hello?