Transcript
Edited by Kent B. Germany, Ken Hughes, Guian A. McKee, and Marc J. Selverstone, with Kieran K. Matthews
President Johnson spoke with Secretary of Defense Robert S. “Bob” McNamara about the appointment of John B. Layton to succeed Robert V. Murray as chief of police for the District of Columbia. In a break with conventional practice, the appointment had been made by the Board of Commissioners of the District of Columbia without consulting either Congress or the White House. Layton lacked unanimous support in D.C. political circles, although he had been viewed as a leading contender for the post. At least some Black leaders expressed uncertainty about Layton’s commitment to civil rights, in particular, though his supporters cited evidence that he in fact did hold liberal views on the subject.
Beneath the superficial politics of the issue lay a mounting concern about crime levels in the District. During his presidential campaign, Republican nominee Senator Barry M. Goldwater Sr. [R–Arizona] had attempted to use the District’s supposedly rising crime rate to embarrass President Johnson, who in turn had exchanged a series of public letters with Board of Commissioners president Walter N. Tobriner in which each tried to deflect blame.[note 1] Ben Gilbert, “Layton Appointment Stirs Political Fuss: Abrupt Naming of Police Chief Leaves Bruised Feelings,” Washington Post, 21 November 1964; “LBJ, Tobriner Trade Letters on D.C. Crime,” Washington Post, 25 October 1964.
In this call, President Johnson expressed anger that both McNamara’s daughter and the daughter of a Republican senator had been robbed recently in the District. The exchange reflected the delicate politics of crime in relation to gender and, at least indirectly, race. In July 1965, Johnson would issue an executive order creating the President’s Commission on Crime in the District of Columbia to address the issue, and, in 1967, he would abolish the Board of Commissioners and replace it with a mayor and a nine-member council. These actions reflected ongoing tension over both home rule in the District and the growing salience of crime as a divisive, racially charged political issue in the United States.[note 2] For more about Johnson’s role in the origins of mass incarceration, see Elizabeth Hinton, From the War on Poverty to the War on Crime: The Making of Mass Incarceration in America (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 2016), 63–95.
—notify the Attorney General and notify us. They said they would.
The new chief of police?
Yeah.
Yeah.
We wanted to get the outstanding criminologist in the United States and bring him in here and try to make this a model of law enforcement. I got upset particularly when this Senator [Gordon L.] Allott [R–Colorado] from Colorado’s girl and then your girl got robbed, and I just think it’s an outrage that a Cabinet officer’s daughter can’t come in without having thugs [unclear].[note 3] Gordon L. Allot was a U.S. senator [R–Colorado] from January 1955 to January 1973, and chair of the Republican Policy Committee from 1969 to 1973. So I told him and sent word and asked that I be notified. He—[Walter N.] Tobriner got a little upset, said that’s his prerogative, although I’d reappointed him.[note 4] Walter N. Tobriner was president of the Board of Commissioners of Washington, DC, from 1961 to 1967, and U.S. ambassador to Jamaica from November 1967 to March 1969. And they didn’t tell me about it. I didn’t know anything about it. But said he would. He checked with each one of the southerners and boys on the District Committee that they dominate, both of them, about this new man but claimed that he thought that that man notified [Robert F.] Bobby [Kennedy], and Bobby wasn’t there anymore, so he didn’t notify [Nicholas deB. “Nick”] Katzenbach, and he claimed he forgot that we had asked him to do it.[note 5] Robert F. “Bobby” Kennedy was U.S. attorney general from January 1961 to September 1964, and a U.S. senator [D–New York] from January 1965 until his assassination in June 1968. Nicholas deB. “Nick” Katzenbach was assistant U.S. attorney general from 1961 to 1962; deputy U.S. attorney general from April 1962 to January 1965; acting U.S. attorney general from September 1964 to January 1965; U.S. attorney general from February 1965 to October 1966; and U.S. under secretary of state from October 1966 to January 1969. Although he was irritated enough to cuss a fellow out when we told him—[Charles A. “Charlie”] Horsky.[note 6] Charles A. “Charlie” Horsky, a Harvard Law School graduate and a partner in the prominent law firm of Covington and Burling, was president of the Washington Planning and Housing Association from 1960 to 1962, and served as presidential adviser on National Capital Affairs from 1962 to 1967. [McNamara acknowledges.]
Now, [John B.] Duncan finds him [John B. Layton] very unacceptable and was against him.[note 7] John B. Duncan was the first Black commissioner of Washington, D.C., from 1961 to 1967. John B. Layton served as chief of the Metropolitan Police Department of Washington, D.C., from November 1964 to July 1969. Your man didn’t know much about it, just went along. He’s the fall guy. [McNamara acknowledges.] Tobriner’s trying to slip it over.
Now, we were informed that two weeks ago, this fellow’s daughter was caught shoplift—purse-lifting here in town, and they started to prosecute her. The District called up—police did—this fellow and told him that he wouldn’t present any evidence. And so Acheson was forced to dismiss the case.[note 8] This is possibly a reference to David C. Acheson, the United States Attorney for the District of Columbia at the time. Now, we don’t want any national problems in the police department of the Capitol like we’ve had in some of these other ones.
[speaking under President Johnson] Sure. Sure.
Now, Katzenbach is writing a letter, I think—he’s out of town now, but you might check with him [when] he gets back—to the chairman [of] the Board, Tobriner, saying that we want this regarded as probationary. [McNamara acknowledges.] We hope it’ll be treated only as temporary. I doubt we have any legal jurisdiction, either he or I, but he’s asking that, and when that letter comes up for consideration, we think that Duncan and [Charles M.] Duke [Sr.] ought to say that, in view of the fact that we have the responsibility for the federal establishments in the Capitol, and the Attorney General has these problems, and we have these problems, it’s a matter that ought to be cooperatively handled and have some person that’s satisfactory, that’s outstanding.[note 9] Maj. Gen. Charles M. Duke Sr. joined the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers in 1939; served as engineer commissioner of the District of Columbia during the Johnson administration; and retired as chief engineer of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers North Atlantic Division in 1971. And if the FBI report shows that any of these things have been alleged happening, we don’t want to get ourselves in a jam of having that kind of fellow running it. [McNamara acknowledges.] And I thought I ought to tell you and let you talk to Katzenbach and then see what the score is—
[speaking under President Johnson] Sure. [Unclear.] Sure.
—and talk to your man. And I think it’s something you have to be discreet about. Look at his background, see who he is, what kind of fellow he is, who talks to him, and who he works with over there, and so on, and so forth. Get a good, complete picture before you move. But I don’t think we ought to have this capital in charge of a corrupt man.
Yeah. I’ll talk to Nick as soon as he gets back and work on it.
All right.
Thanks, Mr. President.
Cite as
“Lyndon B. Johnson and Robert S. McNamara on 18 November 1964,” Conversation WH6411-23-6398, Presidential Recordings Digital Edition [Election of 1964, vol. 2, ed. Kent B. Germany, Ken Hughes, Guian A. McKee, and Marc J. Selverstone] (Charlottesville: University of Virginia Press, 2014–). URL: http://prde.upress.virginia.edu/conversations/4020052