Dick?

Yes?

I hate to bother you again, but—

[in a good mood] [That’s] all right, Mr. President.

—I wanted you to know that I’d made the announcement.

[puzzled momentarily] Announcement of what?

Of this special commission.

Oh you have already?

Yes.

Uh-huh.

And I got Chief—here—may I read it to you?

Yes.

[reading]

The President announced that he’s appointing a Special Commission to study and report upon all the facts and circumstances relating to the assassination of the late President, John F. Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination. The President stated that the majority and minority leadership of the Senate and the House had been consulted with respect [to the] proposed Special Commission. The members of the Special Commission are: Chief Justice Earl Warren, chairman; Senator Richard Russell, Georgia; Senator John [Sherman] Cooper, Kentucky; Representative Hale Boggs, Louisiana; Representative Gerald Ford, Michigan; Honorable Allen Dulles, Washington; Honorable John J. McCloy, New York.

The President stated the Special Commission is to be instructed to evaluate all available information concerning the subject [of] the inquiry. The Federal Bureau of Investigation, pursuant to an earlier directive of the President, is making [a] complete investigation of the facts. An inquiry is scheduled by a Texas Court of Inquiry convened by the attorney general of Texas under Texas law. The Special Commission will have before it all the evidence uncovered by the Federal Bureau of Investigation and all [the] information available to any agency [of] the federal government. The attorney general of Texas has also offered his cooperation. All federal agencies and offices are being directed to furnish services in cooperation with the Special Commission. The Commission will also be empowered to conduct any further investigation that it deems desirable. The President is instructing the Special Commission to satisfy itself that the truth is known as far as it can be discovered, and to report its findings and conclusions to him, to the American people, and to the world.[note 1] The Presidential Recordings Program revised the following section of text in 2021 for inclusion in The LBJ Telephone Tapes, a project produced by the Miller Center in partnership with the Lyndon B. Johnson Presidential Library to commemorate the library's 50th anniversary.

Well, now, Mr. President, I know I don’t have to tell you of my devotion to you, but I just can’t serve on that commission. I’m highly honored you’d think about me in connection with it. But I couldn’t serve there with Chief Justice Warren. I don’t like that man, and . . . I don’t have any confidence in him, though I realize he’s a much greater man in the United States nearly—today than almost anyone. And so you get John [C.] Stennis, he’s a . . .

Dick, it’s already been announced, and you can serve with anybody for the good of America. And this is a question that has a good many more ramifications than’s on the surface, and they’re—we got to take this out of the arena where they’re testifying it’s [Nikita S.] Khrushchev and [Fidel A.] Castro did this and did that, and that—kicking us into a war that can kill 40 million Americans in an hour.[note 2] See introduction for 29 November 1963. And you’d put on your uniform in a minute.

Now, the reason I asked Warren is because he’s the Chief Justice of this country, and we’ve got to have the highest judicial people we can have. The reason I ask you is because you have that same kind of temperament, and you can do anything for your country. And don’t go to giving me that kind of stuff about you can’t serve with anybody. You can do anything.

Well, see, it’s not only that. I just a—I don’t think the Chief Justice should have served on it.

Well . . . [Russell attempts to interject] Chief Justice ought to do anything he can to save America. And right now, we’ve got a very touchy thing, and you wait till you look at this evidence. And you wait till you look at this [Federal Bureau of Investigation [FBI]] report. Now, don’t just—I’m not going to lead you wrong, and you’re not going to be an Old Dog Tray—[note 3] An expression borrowed from “Old Dog Tray,” a song composed by Stephen C. Foster in 1853. Tray was a gentle and ever-faithful dog.

You know that I have never—

—you’re not going to be in Old Dog Tray company, but—

—I have never—I have never—

—you never turned your country down—

[Unclear] for you that I could, when I could—

Well, this is not me; this is your country. And [reading aloud] “the members of the Special Commission are Chief Justice Warren, Senator Richard Russell”—and I go right down the list. Now, I’ve got Allen Dulles and John McCloy, but you’ve got—you’re my man on that commission. And you’re going to do it! And don’t tell me what you can do and what you can’t, because . . . I can’t arrest you. And I’m not going to put the FBI on you. But you’re goddamn sure going to serve, I’ll tell you that![note 4] End of 2021 revisions. And A. W Moursund’s here and he wants to tell you that—how much all of us love you.[note 5] Russell had met and become friendly with Moursund during the senator’s regular visits to Texas. Wait a minute.

Well, I know. But Mr. President, you ought [to have] told me you was going to name [Warren] [unclear]—

I told you! I told you today I was going to name the Chief Justice, when I called you.

No you did not!

I did.

You [were] talking about getting somebody on the Supreme Court—

That’s [right] . . .

—and who you think you ought to get. You didn’t tell me you was going to name him.[note 6] Technically, Johnson did mention Warren’s name, but not in a manner that left Russell believing Warren was Johnson’s top choice.

I told you I was going to name Warren [and] you said it’d be better to name [John Marshall] Harlan![note 7] Johnson was referring to Associate Justice John Marshall Harlan. The President may have been honestly confusing Russell’s advice with that of Eastland’s. The Mississippi senator was the one who suggested Justice Harlan during his 7:03 p.m. conversation with the President. See footnote 196.

Oh, no. Either—we talked, and I said [Tom] Clark wouldn’t do [be]cause he’s—[note 8] Russell was referring to Associate Justice Tom Clark.

No, that’s right—

But [unclear]—

—that’s right. And I’ve got to get the highest justice I can get. He turned Bobby Kennedy down![note 9] See footnote 228. Bobby—they talked to him [Warren], and he just said he wouldn’t serve under any circumstances. I called him down here, and I spent an hour with him.[note 10] Actually the meeting lasted 25 minutes. For the Chief Justice’s account of the meeting, see Warren, Memoirs, pp. 356–58. And I begged him as much as I’m begging you. I just said, “Now here’s the situation. I want [to] tell you what mister—”

You never have had to beg me. You’ve always told me, all right? [Unclear]—

No, I haven’t, no. No, I haven’t—

—I don’t—Mr. President, please now.

No, it’s already done. It’s been announced, hell.

[incredulously] You mean you’ve given that [unclear]—

Yes, sir. I mean I gave it—I gave the announcement, and it’s already in the papers, [and] you’re on it, [and] you are going to be my man on it. And you just—you just forget that. Now wait a minute. A. W [Moursund] wants to say a word to you and then I’ll be back.

Hello, Senator?

[sounding none too pleased] Yeah.

We’re just sitting here talking, [and] he said, “I got one man on there—”

[annoyed] Oh, [unclear]—

—“that’s smarter than all the rest of them put together.”

—[Unclear] You’re just trying to butter me up. [Unclear]—

I ain’t buttering you up, Senator—

—you know, just like I do—

Well—

—he ought not to be putting me on this [commission] [unclear]—

—Well, goddamnit, you know I’m not that kind of feller! And I just heard that [and] just wanted you to know that. Because hell, he[’s] depending on you, you know that. And—

[Unclear]—

—and he just got through saying, he said, “I got one man on there that’s smarter than all the rest of them put together.”

[Laughs.] Yeah . . . all right.

Yeah. That’s the truth, and you know it. You know I know it, Senator.

Well, A.W . . . I don’t know when I’ve been as unhappy about a thing as I am this. This is awful.

Well, I know, but you—you can take them. God Almighty, you’ve took them for years, and the hard ones, and the tough ones—and you can take care of it, and you take care of yourself.

Well, how’s everything down in Texas? Kill any deer down there this season?

Well you come see us.

Well, [unclear]—

But you don’t—don’t say you can’t do anything, [be]cause you [are] the best can-do man there is.

[chuckling] Oh, no.

Yeah.

Oh, no.

Dick?

Yeah.

Now . . . we’re going into a lot of problems. I saw—[since] we had lunch together, and I—I saw [Carl] Sanders, and I saw—I’ve seen a good many people since then [and] even saw [Roy] Wilkins today; had a long talk with him. Now, these things are going to be developing to Richard Russell, and I know you [are] going to have your reservations, and your modesty, and you [are] going to have a—

[protesting] [Unclear]—

Wait a minute! Now wait a minute! I understand that. But now your President’s asking you to do these things, and there are some things that I want you in besides civil rights. And by God, you [are] going to be in them because—

Well I—

—I can’t run this country by myself! And—

[You] know damn well my future’s behind me and that’s not entering into it at all.

Well, your future is—

[Unclear]—

—your future’s your country. And you [are] going to do everything you can to serve America. And I—

I just haven’t—I can’t do it. I haven’t got the time. I—

Oh well, now, well, all right. We’ll just—

—[unclear]—

—we’ll just make the time.

—[unclear] all my Georgia items in there.

Well, we’ll just make the time. There’s not going to be any time to begin with. All you[’re] going to do is evaluate a [J. Edgar] Hoover report [that] he’s already made.[note 11] Johnson meant the FBI report on the assassination being prepared at his request. But—

Well, I don’t think we ought to move that fast on it—

Well, OK. Well then, we won’t move any faster than you want to move. But . . . you are going to lend your name to this thing because you are the head of the CIA committee in the Senate. And you’re going to have [J. William] Fulbright and [Bourke] Hickenlooper on it, because this thing is breaking faster than you think.[note 12] See conversations with Fulbright at 7:11 p.m. and Hickenlooper at 7:20 p.m. And . . . I’ve already talked to Hickenlooper and Fulbright and asked them to go with you, sit on your committee, because I don’t want these things torn up. The Secretary of State came over here this afternoon.[note 13] Rusk had visited Johnson in the morning. He’s deeply concerned, Dick, about the idea that they’re spreading throughout the Communist world, that Khrushchev killed Kennedy![note 14] Rusk was concerned about rumors in the non-Communist world about Soviet-bloc complicity.

Now he didn’t. He didn’t have a damned thing to do with it.

Well, I don’t think he did directly.

Well—

I know Khrushchev didn’t because he thought he was getting along better with Kennedy—

All right—

—[better] than anybody else.

—all right. But we want—we got to have some people—

[Unclear.][But] I wouldn’t—I wouldn’t be surprised if Castro had.

All right; then OK. That’s what we want to know. And people got confidence in you. And you can just be surprised or not surprised. They want to know what you think.

[Unclear]—

And if my—A. W Moursund’s one who wants to know what you think. And you—

I think you’re sort of taking advantage of me, Mr. President—

No—

—but, [of] course, I can’t turn it down—

—no, you’re not—I’m not taking advantage of

you

—[unclear.]

—I’m going to take [a] helluva lot of advantage of you, my friend, because you—you made me and I know it, and I don’t ever forget. And if you think—I’ll be taking advantage of you a good deal. But you are going to serve your country, and you are going to do what’s right, and if you can’t do it, you get that damned little Bobby [Russell] up there, and let him twist your tail and put a cocklebur under it.[note 15] Robert Russell was a Georgia judge and Senator Russell’s nephew.

Well, he’s . . .

Where is he?

I don’t know. He’s in Atlanta tonight, I don’t [unclear]—

Well you just tell him [to] get ready, because I’m going to need him. And . . . you just tell him that.

I saw he and [Ernest] Vandiver this afternoon for about 30 minutes, they came by here.[note 16] Ernest Vandiver preceded Carl Sanders as governor of Georgia.

Well, just tell either one of them that I’d just like to use them any place, and—because I’m a Russell protege, and I don’t forget my friends. And I want you to stand up and be counted and I don’t want to beg you, by God, to serve on these things {that amount to something.

I know, but this is a sort of rough one now. [Unclear]—

No, it’s not rough! What’s rough about this? I talked to Jim Eastland. Jim Eastland, he said this is the best thing that ever happened!

Yeah.

I talked to Tom Dodd. I talked to everybody. Not a damned one of them that [unclear]. All these folks are going to be part of it.

Yes, sir. I’m sure they will.

They had a full-scale investigation going, Dick with the TV up there. They had the House Un-American Activities Committee in it.[note 17] Separately, the House Un-American Activities Committee and the House Judiciary Committee had declared their intentions to investigate and hold hearings on the assassination. Other House committees were likely to become involved as well.

Well, all of that was a lot of crap and they shouldn’t have done it.}

Well, of course, but how do I stop it? How do I stop it, Dick? Now don’t tell me that I’ve worked all day and done wrong!

I didn’t say you’d done wrong! I said that they ought not to have had that kind of a hearing, and it ought to have been stopped, and it could’ve been stopped some other way. But that’s—

Well, now, what do you think—

—I could have stopped it in the Senate.

What do you think I’ve done wrong now by appointing you on a commission?

Hell, I just don’t like Warren, I don’t like his [unclear]—

Well, of course, you don’t like Warren. But you’ll like him before it’s over with.

I haven’t got any confidence in him.

Well, let—you can give him some confidence. Goddamn it! {Associate with him! Now you’re not, you’ve got nothing to—I’m not afraid to put your intelligence against Warren’s. Now by God, I want a man on that commission, and I’ve got one.

I don’t know about the intelligence, of course, and I feel like I’m being kidded. But if you think—

Well, if you think—now Dick, do you think I’d kid

you?

If it is for the good of the country, you know damned well I’ll do it. And I’ll do it for you, for that matter. I still feel like it—sort of getting wrapped up.

Dick, do you remember when you met me at the Carlton Hotel for breakfast in 1952? When we had breakfast there one morning, [and] I became [Senate majority] leader?[note 18] Johnson was formally elected Senate majority leader in January 1953.

Yes, I think I do.}

All right. Do you think I’m kidding you?

No, I don’t think you are kidding me [chuckles]—

All right.

—I think that—but I think I’m—well, I’m not going to say anymore, Mr. President—

Well, you ought—

—because I’m at your command, and—

All right.

—I’ll do anything you want [me to do]—

Well, you are damn sure going to be at my command—

—[unclear] where the country’s involved.

You are going to be at my command as long as I’m here.

I hope to God you’ll be just a little bit more . . . deliberate and considerate next time about it. But this time, of course, if you’ve done this, I’m going to do it and go through with it, and say I think it’s a wonderful idea.

Well, I’m not going to be any more deliberate than I’ve been about this, because I’ve been pretty deliberate. But I’m going to have you on a good, goddamned many things that I have to decide, and you are going to be America’s representative. And I don’t want any special obligation; I just know you are going to call them as you see them. And I served under you—

[Unclear.]

—and I don’t give a damn if you have to serve with a Republican, if you have to serve with a Communist, if you have to serve with a Negro, if you have to serve with a thug—

[Unclear]—

—if you have to serve with A. W. Moursund!

—I can serve with a Communist, and I can serve with a Negro. I can serve with a Chinaman, and—

Well, you may have to serve with A. W. Moursund!

And if I can serve with A. W. Moursund, I would say, “Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to serve under you, Judge Moursund.” But . . . well, we won’t discuss this [anymore]—

No, no.

—of course, Mr. President. I’ll serve.

OK, Dick—

All right.

—[and] give Bobby [Russell] my love, and tell him he’d better get ready to—

[Unclear]—

—to give up that fruitful law practice he’s got.

He’s a judge [on the] Court of Appeals of Georgia now.

Oh, God Almighty.

[Unclear], you see. I got him on there; he’s making [as] much money as I am.

Oh, yeah?

His salary’s exactly the same—

What about Vandiver?

Well, he’s running for governor next time and will be elected.

Hmm.

[Unclear]—

Well who the hell’s going to help me, besides you?

Well, those boys will help you if you need them!

Well I need them!

They’re—damn it—they’re harder for you at one time than I was, don’t you remember?

No, no, I never did. Nobody has ever been more to me than you have, Dick—except my mother.

Oh ho-ho; no. [Laughs.]

No, no. That’s true. I never—I bothered you more and made you spend more hours with me telling me what was right and wrong than anybody except my mother.

[Unclear] getting me to do more things I didn’t want to do than anybody.

No, I’ve never made—

[Unclear]—

—you do anything that was wrong.

—[unclear].

I’ve never made you do anything wrong.

I didn’t say wrong. I said the more things I didn’t want to do.

Well . . .

But . . . Bobby and Ernie are two of the most loyal friends you’ve got on earth.

I know that.

They both called me up and said, “You’ve just got to do whatever Mr. Johnson says.”

No, I don’t want you to do that. I just want to counsel with—

I’m not talking right on this now; I’m talking—

—I just want to counsel with you, and I just want your judgment, and your wisdom, and . . . I don’t expect us to agree on—

For whatever it’s worth, you’ve got it, but—

I’m going to have it because—because I haven’t got any Daddy, and you’re going to be it—[Russell chuckles]—now just, forget that.

Well, Mr. President, you know—I think you know me.

I do; I do. And I know you’re for your country and period. Now, you just get ready to do this. And I—you’re my man on there, and period.

[If] you hadn’t announced it, I would absolutely—

Nooo, you wouldn’t; no you wouldn’t.

Yes I would—

No.

—yes I would. [Unclear]—

No. I told Warren—Warren told—

I certainly would have.

—Warren told me he wouldn’t do it under any circumstances, didn’t think a Supreme Court Justice ought to go on it—

[Unclear.]

—he wouldn’t have anything to do with it. He said a man that’d criticized this fella that went on the Nuremberg trial, [Justice Robert] Jackson—he told me what he’d thought about [Arthur] Goldberg.[note 19] See footnote 144. He [Warren] thought it was terrible that he’s arbitrating the [railroad] track. And I said, “Let me read you one report.” And I just picked up one report and read it to him. And I said, “OK. Now”—

Well—

—[there are] 40 million Americans involved here—

—I may be wholly wrong. But I think Mr. Warren would serve on anything that’d give him any publicity, unfortunately.

Well, do you want me to tell you the truth?

I ain’t—

You know what happened?

—interested in publicity. [Chuckles.]

Do you know what happened? Bobby [Kennedy] and them went up to see him today, and he turned them down cold and said no.

Yeah.

Two hours later, I called him and ordered him down here and he didn’t want to come. I insisted that he come; he came down here and he told me no twice. And I just pulled out what Hoover told me, about a little incident in Mexico City, and I said, “Now I don’t want Mr. Khrushchev to be told tomorrow and be testifying before a camera that he killed this fella, and that Castro killed him.[note 20] See footnote 55. And all I want you to do is look at the facts, and bring any other facts you want in here and determine who killed the President. And I think you’d put on your uniform [from] World War I”—fat as you are—“and do anything you could to save one American life. Now I’m surprised that you, the Chief Justice of the United States, would turn me down.”

And he started crying, and he said, “Well, I won’t turn you down. I’ll just do whatever you say.” But he turned the Attorney General down.

Well, you ought not to be so persuasive.

Well, I think I ought to.

I think you did wrong getting Warren, and I know damned well you got it wrong getting me, but—

No.

—we’ll both do the best we can.

I think that’s what you’ll do. That’s the kind of Americans both of you are.

[Unclear.]

Good night.

Good night.