Lyndon Johnson and Thomas Mann on 9 December 1963


Transcript

Edited by Robert David Johnson and David Shreve, with Ashley Havard High and Patricia Dunn

See the daily introduction for 1963-12-09  [from the Norton edition]

Over the weekend, the President had requested a special review of U.S. policy toward Cuba, with an eye toward doing more to thwart Fidel Castro; Johnson also had confirmed his decision to invite Mexican president Adolfo López Mateos to the United States. Johnson believed that close U.S.-Mexican ties formed a key to the success of the Alliance for Progress. Yet he also remained convinced that the alliance could not succeed with the bureaucratic structure he had inherited, and so Johnson had set McGeorge Bundy to the task of considering a revised setup while he searched for a replacement to Assistant Secretary of State for Latin American Affairs Edwin Martin.

The day before, Bundy had produced a memorandum reflecting the President’s basic position on the question. The national security adviser asserted that the Latin American affairs post “works best when there is a single officer in Washington with full authority over all aspects of our Latin American policy and activity, under the Secretary of State and the President.[note 1] McGeorge Bundy, “Basic Argument for Establishing an Undersecretary for Latin American Affairs and Answers to Arguments against It,” 8 December 1963, Bundy Memos to the President, Box 1, National Security File, Lyndon Johnson Library. Accordingly, he saw no reason not to create a position of under secretary of state for Latin American affairs, in the hope of providing “an important psychological boost to the Alliance for Progress.[note 2] Ibid. Such a move would not form a precedent for the creation of similar posts for other regions of the world, Bundy surmised, because Dean Rusk, George Ball, and Averell Harriman already performed the function for every region but Latin America.[note 3] Ibid.

The problem, Bundy realized, came in filling the position with “an officer of undoubted stature who commands the confidence of leaders in Congress, the executive branch, and the Latin American world.[note 4] Ibid. Johnson had just such a figure in mind, as he revealed in his 3:30 call to Thomas Mann, then serving as ambassador to Mexico. Born and raised in Laredo, Texas, a border community where most of the population was of Hispanic descent, Mann was fluent in both Spanish and English. He trained as a lawyer but joined the State Department in 1943, where he served in a variety of Latin American embassies over the next 15 years. He returned to the United States in 1958, when Dwight Eisenhower appointed him assistant secretary of state for economic affairs; two years later, he was elevated to chief policymaker for Latin America, a post that he held until mid-1961. Mann’s association with the Eisenhower administration, which had offered a Latin American policy parsimonious on economic aid and sparing in its support for social democrats (at least until Fidel Castro came to power), appeared to provide some indication of a change in perspective regarding the alliance, as well as a source of irritation to more than a few administration officials who regarded Mann as too conservative. As it turned out, Mann’s selection was determined more by personality than policy; alliance politics remained largely on the course set for it by the Kennedy administration. The call nonetheless cemented the return to Washington of a diplomat who would play a key role in the Johnson administration over the next two months, as crises flared with Panama and Cuba.[note 5] Stephen G. Rabe, Eisenhower and Latin America: The Foreign Policy of Anticommunism (Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1988), pp.106–60.

President Johnson

Yes, Tom, When are you coming up here?

Thomas Mann

I’m coming up tomorrow. I leave on a . . . I think I’ll get there about 4:30 or 5:00 in the afternoon.

President Johnson

Mm-hmm.

Mann

I’m coming up to testify on the Chamizal.[note 6] The Senate was considering the U.S.-Mexican treaty to return to Mexico a small portion of land, known as the Chamizal, that had been left on the U.S. side of the border after the Rio Grande shifted slightly.

President Johnson

Mm-hmm. I may want you to stay up here.

Mann

[Pauses, then chuckles.] All right. [Pauses again.] Well, I kind of hope not, but . . . I’d like to talk with you about it, in any case, if you decide to go ahead on that.

President Johnson

You know what I’m thinking about?

Mann

Well, I’m guessing, yes. I’ve got a good guess.

President Johnson

You know what I’ve thought all the time about having one man in the entire [Alliance for Progress] operation.

Mann

Uh-huh.

President Johnson

Kind of an under secretary.

Mann

Well, fine. I’ll be at your service, as always, to talk about it.

President Johnson

Well, I want you to do more than talk about it: I want somebody to do something about it. We’ve been talking enough.

Mann

[chuckling] All right.

President Johnson

So you be thinking about . . .

Mann

I’ll be thinking about it. Shall I get in touch with your office?

President Johnson

First thing you do, you call Walter Jenkins as soon as you hit town, because I want you to kind of lay it out the way you’d like to see it done.

Mann

All right. Well, I’ll be in touch with Walter as soon as I get there, then.

President Johnson

Now, are you going to bring me any message about when we’re going to have that visit [by Mexican president López Mateos]?

Mann

I think that the climate is favorable, but I think they’re going to wait. They’re thinking about the time and the place. There’s nothing definite yet.

President Johnson

Mm-hmm. If it’s convenient to them, it could be the 30th of December. If not, we could do it in Los Angeles next spring . . . next February, or we could do it in Washington any time they’d like.

Mann

Uh-huh. They’re also thinking about El Paso as a possibility.

President Johnson

Yeah.

Mann

A border meeting. I don’t know what your thought is.

President Johnson

I hadn’t . . .

Mann

From their standpoint here, they would like the Chamizal . . . built around the Chamizal [settlement].

President Johnson

Yeah.

Mann

And I really don’t know enough about what your thoughts are to . . . I haven’t said anything much.

President Johnson

Yeah. Well, I think I’d tell them I’d like for them to come to the ranch or come here or come to Camp David with me for the weekend. Or we’ll give consideration to El Paso. I don’t know whether that will stir this thing up. I think we have to see how this goes—this treaty.

Mann

Well, I thought maybe you’d like to wait yourself until the end of this week, for that reason.

President Johnson

Yeah. Well, I’m very anxious, though, to talk over some real important things with you, so you give it a lot of thought ahead of time. And we’ll see where we’d fit in the alliance and the OAS [Organization of American States] and some of the related things underneath, where we could have one central direction and one man in charge.[note 7] Created in 1948 out of the former Pan American Union, the Organization of American States included 21 nations in 1963.

Mann

All right. Well, fine. I’ll be thinking about it, and I’ll call Walter tomorrow.

President Johnson

How well do you know Bunker?

Mann

Well, I used to know him fairly well. Ellsworth Bunker?

President Johnson

Yeah.

Mann

Used to know him—when he was ambassador to the Argentine.

President Johnson

Yeah, well . . . They’re talking about him kind of at the OAS, so I’ll talk to you about it tomorrow. But you give a good deal of thought to that.

Mann

I’ll do it.

President Johnson

All right.

Mann

Thanks very much.

President Johnson

I don’t want any noes, Tom.

Mann

[chuckling] Well, you never got a no from me.

President Johnson

OK. All right.

Mann

Good-bye.

Three calls dealing with the civil rights petition and the education bill offered a sense of the complex relationship between Johnson and Larry O’Brien. The two shared a passion for the art of politics, and both were masters at the intricacies of forming congressional coalitions when doing so seemed initially impossible. The day before, Johnson had informed the Washington Post, “I’m more a compromiser and a maneuverer. I try to get something. That’s the way our system works.”[note 8] Washington Post, 8 December 1963. The same philosophy guided O’Brien. In addition, Johnson respected O’Brien skills in electoral politics, which he wanted to put to use in the coming campaign. At the same time, though, as seen in the somewhat pedagogical tone adopted by the President in the 4:05 call, the Johnson-O’Brien relationship would differ markedly from that between Kennedy and O’Brien. While Kennedy, never entirely comfortable with the compromising and maneuvering Johnson seemed to relish, generally deferred to O’Brien’s judgment, the new President surely would not: he considered O’Brien a knowledgeable and indispensable aide, but one decidedly subaltern on the question of how to handle Congress.[note 9] Lawrence F. O’Brien, No Final Victories: A Life in Politics—From John F. Kennedy to Watergate (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1974), pp. 104–80.

Cite as

“Lyndon Johnson and Thomas Mann on 9 December 1963,” Tape K6312.06, PNO 1, Presidential Recordings Digital Edition [The Kennedy Assassination and the Transfer of Power, vol. 2, ed. Robert David Johnson and David Shreve] (Charlottesville: University of Virginia Press, 2014–). URL: http://prde.upress.virginia.edu/conversations/9020103

Originally published in

Lyndon B. Johnson: The Kennedy Assassination and the Transfer of Power, November 1963–January 1964, ed. Robert David Johnson and David Shreve, vol. 2 of The Presidential Recordings (New York and London: W. W. Norton and Company, 2005).