John?

Yes.

Lyndon Johnson.

Yes [unclear], Mr. President.

How you getting along?

Oh, very good, very good. I think we’re coming out—I am. Norma’s out of town.[note 1] Norma Myers Cheatham McClellan was Senator McClellan’s second wife. His first wife, Lucille, had died in 1935. I think we’re coming out there tonight.

Is that good-looking woman still living with you?

Occasionally. [Johnson chuckles.] Occasionally.

You mean she’s not going to be there tonight?

No, she’s in [unclear].

Well, hell, John, I invited the party on account of her. [McClellan laughs heartily.] I wanted—I just use you as an excuse so I can have a front and a foil.

Well, I’ll tell her that.

John, I’ve got a little problem. I don’t want to embarrass you in any way, and the best way to avoid it is to talk to you about them beforehand so you know what the problem is.

Mr. Ed Murrow is dying with the cancer of the lung. I’ve got to get me another man. I’ve got a good, solid man that went around the world with me and spent a good deal of time working with me and writing stuff for me and helping me. He’s a good administrator, and he’ll listen to me—but he’s a Negro. [McClellan chuckles.] His name is Carl Rowan. He’s ambassador to Finland.

I doubt if I’m going with that. [Unclear] you do what you want to.

I don’t want you; I wouldn’t expect you to endorse him or be for him. But I just wanted you to know about it, because I didn’t want to do it with you wondering why in the hell your friend didn’t tell you.

Well, that’s [unclear].

But I don’t . . . If you make any fight on him or anything like that, why, of course, I’d expect you [to oppose him]. I know what your problems are.

Yes. Well, that’s all right. Let’s see. What committee does he come before?

Oh, I don’t know, I guess it would be, I guess Foreign Relations, I don’t know.

[Unclear] Foreign Relations.

But USIA is in your department on appropriations [side], and I don’t want you to cut his guts out because he’s a Nigra.[note 2] For editorial policy on this spelling of “Negro” see footnote 41 in the conversation between President Johnson and Walker Stone, 6 January 1964, in this volume.

Well . . .

I’ve seen you operate with a knife, and I have seen a little—a few people get de-nutted that take—

No, I wouldn’t say that. I wouldn’t cut it on that account. Some parts of that program, I think we’re just throwing money away.

Well, we’re going to—

I just understand they took this picture, you know, of this mass demonstration here—March on Washington—and they doctored that up, and they’re showing it all over the world, showing the worst side of America.[note 3] The USIA produced two films about the 28 August 1963 event, The March and The March on Washington. Directed by award-winning filmmaker James Blue, The March was the more heavily touted film. See The March, 1963, RG 306.765; Motion Picture, Sound, and Video Records, Special Media Archives Services Division, NARA; and The March on Washington, 08/1963, RG 306.3394, ibid. God, I’m against that sort of propaganda.

Yeah.

I think it’s more harmful than helpful.

Well, we’ll—

Ed Murrow’s crowd’s been doing that.

We’ll talk to him about that when he gets in here, and—

No, I mean that, Mr. President.

I will. I’ll talk to him.

That’s what irritates the hell out of me about the program. A lot of it . . . The general theory and everything about this USIA I support.

Well, it is, and I’ll talk to him about it. I’ll make him come talk to you or see that somebody does talk to you and keep close to you. I’m going to make a decent program out of it, because we—

If they do that, they can have my support. But these things that are putting the worst goddamned [unclear] out all over the world. That is not—

I know that, I know that.

God, I don’t see what they mean—

All right, now, what I wanted you to do is:

• 1. I wanted you to know who he was, and he’s a friend of mine, and I trust him and trust him implicitly. Anything, any problem you have, you let me know about it, and I’ll work on it. That’s number one.
• 2. I didn’t want to do it without your knowing it.
• 3. I didn’t want you to just say, “Well, Johnson sent me a Nigra up here.” [McClellan chuckles.] He’s a Tennessee Nigra and a good one. But I didn’t want you to say he sent me up here and then let him . . . send him home one day without his peter.[note 4] Johnson was fond of using this reference to emasculation to describe McClellan’s maneuvers. Joseph Califano, an aide who would join Johnson’s staff in July 1965, recounted Johnson’s use of a similar metaphor to him after McClellan got the better of Califano on legislation to create the Transportation Department. See Joseph A. Califano, The Triumph and Tragedy of Lyndon Johnson: The White House Years (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1991), pp. 125–26.

Oh, no. I wouldn’t do that.

All right.

I wouldn’t do it like that.

Well, no, I know that. I know you wouldn’t do it on that account, but I’ve seen you operate, John.

I’m with you on—

I know that.

—the economy program.

I know it.

I think it would be helpful—

Well, we’re going to do it. How did you like my budget figure?

Well, I was surprised by a billion, a billion and a half dollars.

You’re like old Harry Byrd—

[Unclear] and I appreciate it. I know it’s going to be difficult to live with—

Well, we’re going to have to live with it. We’re going to be under it. You—

I’m going to try to help you.

We’re going to be under it, my friend. You’re going to be like Harry Byrd—you were pleasantly surprised. [Laughs.]

[Unclear] a billion and a half was at least [unclear]. Anyhow, you’re going to have my support in that, and I know you’ve got problems. You can’t do it all at once, and I’m going to be [as] understanding as I know how.

Well, I know it. You’re always a fair, reasonable man.

On things like this, when you tell me, I’ll always show every deference and—

I know that.

—when I am treated this way, I appreciate it.

Well, I’m going to treat you . . . You know who my lawyer was when I was sworn in, don’t you?

No. But, I do. I appreciate your calling me, and I know you’ll have problems. You’ve got to do a lot of things that I wouldn’t do—unless I was president [unclear] might have to—

[chuckling] That’s right. God bless you. Thank you, John. Thank you.

OK. Bye.