Lyndon Johnson and Sargent Shriver on 1 February 1964


Transcript

Edited by Robert David Johnson and Kent B. Germany, with Ashley Havard High and Patricia Dunn

See the daily introduction for 1964-02-01  [from the Norton edition]

This final call rounded out a day of complicated interaction between Shriver and President Johnson. In tone and substance, it differed remarkably from the three earlier discussions. After having dispensed with the question of whether Shriver would accept the position as the new coordinator of a domestic War on Poverty, Johnson delved into several policy areas and even touched on the issue of Shriver’s being a potential running mate for the fall. Expectedly, they explored the poverty issue, but the President also reached out to him on matters involving Panama, Latin America, and Vietnam, implying at one point that Americans had been involved in the assassination of South Vietnamese leader Ngô Đinh Diệm.

Sargent Shriver

. . . down there?

President Johnson

Well, by God, because there’s nobody else working.

Shriver

You should be taking a swim.

President Johnson

He’s [Bill Moyers] off with Shriver somewhere, and I’m here having—Somebody’s got to tend the store.

Shriver

You should be taking a swim now.

President Johnson

It looks like you got all the headlines.

Shriver

Well, I’m sure of that.

President Johnson

That’s right. “Popular, personable businessman.” [to Jack Valenti] Get me some of that stuff they’ve been writing about Shriver over there, Jack, right quick.

Shriver

They’ve been calling out here, and I’m not available to anybody.

President Johnson

Yeah.

Well, it says . . .

Shriver

Do you know—

President Johnson

[reading] “Sargent Shriver, Director of the Peace Corps, will become a special assistant to President Johnson to direct this administration’s campaign against poverty. President made the announcement in a news conference today. He said Shriver will continue to serve as Director of the Peace Corps.”

Incidentally, [Ted] Sorensen says that’s terrible.[note 1] Sorensen was President Kennedy’s chief speechwriter and had continued as special assistant to President Johnson after the assassination, helping to write the 8 January State of the Union message. He had announced his resignation from the Johnson White House, however, to begin work on a book about John Kennedy.

[resumes reading] “He called Shriver an eminently qualified man for the additional assignment. Shriver is married to the former Eunice Kennedy, a brother-in-law of Attorney General Robert Kennedy. He had been mentioned as a possible Johnson choice for Vice President in the year’s election.”

Didn’t say in there he declined the honor yesterday.[note 2] Asked about possible vice presidential ambitions, Shriver had informed Geoffrey Gould of the Associated Press that he was “not running for anything” and that he did not think he was “the guy who’s going to be asked.” He added that Robert Kennedy would be a “terrific” choice for the vacancy. “After all,” he claimed, “who’s got a beter [sic] record? He’s obviously got all the qualifications.” This period represented the height of the Shriver for vice president boom. Some reports even suggested that Johnson had already decided to select Shriver as his running mate. Washington Post, 1 February 1964.

[resumes reading] “Johnson said Shriver will direct the antipoverty campaign with a Cabinet committee serving in an ’advisory’,” unquote, ’advisory capacity. He said the Cabinet committee will include, among others, the secretary of welfare, labor, interior, agriculture, and the attorney general.

“In other areas, Johnson told newsmen who had gathered in the cramped White House Theater that Peace Corps Director Shriver will take on additional duties as special presidential assistant. [The] President had high praise for Shriver, who has been mentioned as his possible choice in the Democratic vice-presidential nominee.

“He would not comment on two questions about Senate investigations of Johnson’s friend, Robert G. Baker. The President said he already had spoken with candor and frankness on this subject.[note 3] On 23 January, against the advice of several of his closest aides, the President held an impromptu press conference in which he invited questions on the Baker scandal. Johnson denied that there had been any kickbacks in the purchase of the insurance, suggesting that he only wished to protect the First Lady from having to sell her stock in the LBJ Company if he died. He described the hi-fi set as nothing more than a gift from Baker, a longtime friend. The explanations did not suffice, and the President, who beat a hurried retreat from the room, was portrayed as fleeing from reporters’ questions. Even Scotty Reston, normally a friendly columnist in the New York Times, concluded that the “feeling in the press here” was that the President had not handled the matter “with his usual political skill.” Washington Post, 24 January 1964; see also Washington Star, 24 January 1964; New York Times, 24 January 1964. For extensive conversations on the Baker matter, see Robert David Johnson and David Shreve, eds., The Presidential Recordings, Lyndon B. Johnson: The Kennedy Assassination and the Transfer of Power, November 1963—January 1964, vol. 2, December 1963 (New York: Norton, 2005); and Germany and Johnson, eds., The Presidential Recordings, Johnson, vol. 3, January 1964. And he does not expect the civil rights bill, now being debated in the House, will have to be trimmed back in order to win enactment, but he said he does expect a Senate filibuster on the subject.”

[Pauses.] Let me see . . .

Shriver

You think it will go through the Senate—the House—there, did you say?

President Johnson

Yeah, I said it’d go through the House without amendment.

Shriver

[Unclear.]

President Johnson

[reading again] “Johnson said Shriver will take a hand in both the formulation and the execution of the War on Poverty, would work closely with the Cabinet committee composed of department heads that might be involved in the projected effort. By naming Shriver as a presidential assistant, Johnson seemed to rule out, at least for the present, the idea of creating a separate new agency to handle the antipoverty program.”

I don’t at all.

[resuming] “Johnson described Shriver as eminently qualified and said the Peace Corps director, brother-in-law of the late President, was . . . outstanding qualities of leadership.”

[robustly] God Almighty, I wished I could buy that kind of advertisement. [Shriver chuckles.]

[resuming] “The first question of the conference was aimed at determining whether Johnson foresees a time when the United States might recognize Communist China. ‘No, I do not,’ the President replied. [Pauses.] Johnson said it was not his duty to select his Republican opponent, and he has no favorite for that spot. ‘No, I don’t have,’ Johnson told a news conference questioner, who asked whether he had a special choice for an opponent.

“In the interest of unity, Johnson said he intended to keep from mud-slinging and petty politics. He hoped other Democrats would do likewise. Instead of mudslinging, the political debate should be based on principles. He said during his eight years [as] Democratic Senate leader [in] the Eisenhower administration, he found it was not necessary to sling mud [and] engage in petty politics. He declined to say whether he had anyone particular in mind as a Democratic running mate. If he is nominated by the Democratic convention, he said, he assumed his recommendation would be sought, and that when it was sought, he would give it. In the meantime, he said he would not indicate his favorite for the second place on the party ticket.”

Shriver

[softly] That’s good.

President Johnson

Now . . .

Shriver

Sounds good.

President Johnson

It was good. It was good. Now, what you do is you’ve got to get together and see how in the hell you’re going to administer this thing. Then you’re going to have to get that bill and that message together. Then you’re going to have to get up to that Congress and walk it through.

Shriver

Yeah.

President Johnson

And you got to get on that television and start explaining it. And you’ve got to get this advisory committee in and see that every damned thing that can be done for poverty is done.

Shriver

Yes.

President Johnson

If [Robert] McNamara can take any [Department of] Defense funds and put [them] around to these poor sergeants that are getting less than $3,000 a year, why, let’s find out what we can do there. Let’s find out every—how we, any dollar that’s appropriated, how we can use it for poverty.

And you can have advisory committees in every place. You can have county commissioners’ courts, and you can have mayors. Each one of them have to be sponsors. And you’ll have more influence in this administration than any man in it—because this will have to come. They’ll want to get things, and you’ll have a billion dollars to pass out. And that’s damn near as much as McNamara and Jim Webb’s got in contracts, and theirs [has] got to be for materials, and yours [will be] for people.[note 4] James Webb was NASA administrator.

So, you just call up the pope and tell him you may not be at church every morning on time, but you’re going to be working for the good of humanity.[note 5] Shriver was a Catholic and had recently met with the pope.

Shriver

Yeah.

President Johnson

Walter Jenkins is sitting here. He wants to know if you think he ought to go testify [regarding the Bobby Baker inquiry].[note 6] Republicans on the Senate Rules Committee had demanded that committee chairman B. Everett Jordan (D-North Carolina) subpoena Jenkins to testify after insurance agent Don Reynolds alleged that Jenkins had facilitated a kickback to KTBC in exchange for allowing Reynolds to sell a life insurance policy to Johnson.

Shriver

[puzzled] Aye?

President Johnson

[laughing] No, I was just kidding.

Shriver

Listen, I think the thing to do is to let—you do these things all so well. You’ve got to get them under control yourself—that’s the thing.

President Johnson

No. No, but we are going to have if you get in here and . . .

Shriver

Could I ask you a couple questions?

President Johnson

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Shoot.

Shriver

I thought I would get some guys down here, somewhat the way we sort of analyzed things on this Peace Corps.

President Johnson

All right.

Shriver

From outside the government.

President Johnson

Sure, sure. Sure.

Shriver

And Tex Thornton, head of Litton Industries—[note 7] Charles Bates “Tex” Thornton was Robert McNamara’s Army Air Forces superior in World War II and the leader of the “Whiz Kids” at Ford motors. He later led the dramatic expansion of Litton Industries, a major defense contractor.

President Johnson

Yeah—he’s one of the best. One of the best. I had him help me with space, and I tried to get him to be space administrator.[note 8] Following the Soviet launch of the Sputnik satellite in 1957, Johnson chaired a special Senate committee investigating the space program that made sharp criticisms of Eisenhower’s New Look national security philosophy without seeming to engage in a partisan witch hunt. Among other things, Johnson’s efforts helped provide him with a key position in the formation of NASA. He’s good.

Shriver

He’s coming down to see me tomorrow, or just . . .

President Johnson

All right.

Shriver

I mean, Monday. I just wanted to check some of these guys with you.

President Johnson

Oh, yeah.

Shriver

Gus Tyler of the International Ladies’ [unclear] Garment [Workers’] Union.

President Johnson

Yes, couldn’t be better.

Shriver

Virgil Martin, the president of Carson Pirie Scott [department store].

President Johnson

I don’t know him.

Shriver

Don Schutree, the chairman of the board of Avis Rent a Car.

President Johnson

I don’t know him.

Shriver

Pat Hoy, the president of General . . . Material Service Corporation.[note 9] Material Service Corporation was a Chicago-based construction materials company recently acquired by General Dynamics.

President Johnson

I don’t know him, but I’d use him.

Shriver

Maurice Mitchell, the president of the Encyclopaedia Britannica [unclear].

President Johnson

No, I don’t know him. I know Bill—

Shriver

There’s a fellow down here—

President Johnson

—Bill Benton.[note 10] William Benton, the former Connecticut senator, had gone to Britannica after losing his seat in part because of his outspoken criticism of Joseph McCarthy.

Shriver

—named [Edward] Gudeman, who was the under secretary to [Luther] Hodges.

President Johnson

Yeah.

Shriver

He left. He was a partner in Lehman Brothers. He used to be executive vice president at Montgomery Ward.

President Johnson

Yeah . . . Yeah. Yeah, he’d be good.

Shriver

He left because he said he wasn’t getting enough to do. There wasn’t any problem there that you know of, was there?

President Johnson

Not that I know of.

Shriver

Yeah.

President Johnson

Not that I know of. But it wouldn’t make a damn bit of difference if there was as far as I’m concern—

Shriver

Well, he’s a good friend of mine, and he’s a kind of . . . [unclear] very bright guy.

President Johnson

If he’s a good friend of yours, you go on and get him. You get anybody in here that you can, and [unclear] all holds . . . All things are . . . holds are barred. You just get what you need to run the show, and we’ll support you in it, and . . .

Shriver

My thought was if I got these guys down here . . .

President Johnson

That’s right.

Shriver

I also thought I’d get an educator like the president of Antioch College.[note 11] James P. Dixon, trained as a medical doctor, had been president of Antioch College since 1959.

President Johnson

That’s good.

Shriver

[Unclear] a doctor. Maybe Morris Abram, that lawyer.[note 12] A Georgia native, Morris B. Abram was a civil rights attorney who, in 1963, had argued successfully before the Supreme Court in Gray v. Sanders (372 U.S. 368), a case that solidified the one man, one vote doctrine.

President Johnson

That’s good. That’s good.

Shriver

Get them down here and then put them together with Walter Heller, following your suggestion, and Kermit Gordon.[note 13] Walter Heller was chair of the President’s Council of Economic Advisers. Kermit Gordon was director of the budget.

President Johnson

Yeah.

Shriver

And let them hear what this thing is just as I would hear it.

President Johnson

That’s good.

Shriver

They’d start from scratch—

President Johnson

That’s good . . . that’s good.

Shriver

—you might say with me. They’re all bright as hell, and it seems to me that they might have some ideas of how either to organize it or new ways in which this could be attacked.

President Johnson

I think that’d be excellent. Then I think you ought to have the advisory Cabinet group and see what they’ve got.

Shriver

That’s exactly it. But I didn’t want to be just, you might say, be limited to them.

President Johnson

No, no. Hell, no! Of course not. You’re not limited to anything.

Shriver

OK.

President Johnson

Sky’s the limit. You just make this thing work, period, and we don’t give a damn about the details.

Shriver

Yeah.

President Johnson

And you appoint all the committees you want to, confer with everybody, consult with anyone. Anybody you want us to meet with, why, we’ll do it on our spare time, when we get a night off.

Shriver

OK.

President Johnson

Because this is number one on the domestic front. Next to peace in the world, this is the most important, and we’re going to play it that way. And get all the damn publicity you can. Get on all the televisions you can, as soon as you know enough to talk about it.

Shriver

Yeah.

President Johnson

And . . . Let’s—

Shriver

We’ve . . . they’ve all been calling up on that. I’ve been [unclear] putting them off.

President Johnson

All right. . . . I’d just get ready, and I’d talk to [John Kenneth] Galbraith and get his ideas.[note 14] Galbraith was a prominent author and economist who had been ambassador to India from 1961 to 1963. He’s made two or three good speeches on poverty, and he’s writing this one now. I’d tell him that the President asked you to take this over, and you sure want to rely on him and depend on him to help you with some speeches.

Shriver

OK.

President Johnson

You know him, don’t you?

Shriver

Oh, yeah.

President Johnson

Is he friendly to you?

Shriver

Yes.

President Johnson

Well, you go on and sew this thing up, now, because I can’t shove you much more. With you and Moyer[s] both dragging your feet, I never had such a hard time. You’re a reluctant bride. Moyer[s]’s been attacking me around here for a week, and then I got ready to go in and say yes, and then, God Almighty, you called him up, and he just started having the willies.

Shriver

Well, I tell you . . . See, the thing where we’re worried about is not the . . . is this Peace Corps because it’s so sensitive—

President Johnson

Why in the hell didn’t he worry about that two weeks ago? He’s been telling me about the only guy in the world that could do poverty was Shriver.

Shriver

Moyers [unclear]?

President Johnson

And then—yes—and then, by God, I agree on it, and then you want to unsell me.

Shriver

Well . . .

President Johnson

And . . .

Shriver

See, the thing is, if Bill was back over there in the Peace Corps, I wouldn’t think ten cents about it because he could do it. But the problem is, you see, we’ve got damn few guys like Moyers—

President Johnson

They told me that I never saw an able executive that didn’t have them buried three-deep to take his place if he died. That’s what I . . . That’s the rule I heard: three, three-deep.

Shriver

I agree with you. There’s no question about that. In a normal organization, you’d have that. But the problem here was, you know, getting it started from scratch in so many countries, we’ve used up a lot of able executives. We’ve got 50 able executives all over the world. That’s why we don’t have any problems—

President Johnson

I want to make that boy [Jack Hood] Vaughn of yours ambassador to Panama, that you stole from me over in Senegal.[note 15] Vaughn had been serving as the Peace Corps’ regional director for Latin America. He was the President’s choice to serve as ambassador to Panama and later was director of the Peace Corps. In his youth he had been a Golden Gloves boxing champion for the state of Michigan and a former boxing coach for the University of Michigan. Albion (Michigan) Morning Star, 3 August 1997.

Shriver

That I stole from you?

President Johnson

Yeah. Yeah.

Shriver

[laughing] Oh, God.

President Johnson

Hell, I located Vaughn, and I—

Shriver

You want to know something about Vaughn?

President Johnson

Yes.

Shriver

Vaughn was sitting in Senegal, with his heart aching, and they weren’t even using him. He was—He hated it over in Africa. They wouldn’t let him go to Latin America. He was in AID [Agency for International Development]. And he came up to me when I was in Senegal and said, couldn’t I help get him out of Africa?

President Johnson

Well . . .

Shriver

And he said he was so interested in Latin America, but he couldn’t get a job down there.

President Johnson

Well, the first thing you do is shave his mustache off. And I never saw a fellow—

Shriver

In Latin America, that’s the thing.

President Johnson

I never saw a fellow with a mustache worth a damn yet. Now, I think he’s good, and I’m going to make him one exception . . .

Shriver

I tell you [unclear]—

President Johnson

But you make him shave his mustache.

Shriver

Well, in Latin America, that’s big. Every—All the big shots down there wear mustaches.

President Johnson

Yeah, well, he ain’t—

Shriver

It’s got something to do with the Latin—

President Johnson

He’s not going to be very big anywhere, his size.

Shriver

Yeah, that’s right. Well, you know who he was, don’t you?

President Johnson

Yeah. Who?

Shriver

He fought Sugar Ray Robinson.[note 16] Robinson had been a world champion welterweight and middleweight boxer.

President Johnson

I know it. I know it. He . . . he’s—

Shriver

See, that’s the thing: You take Moyers away from me; you take Vaughn away from me; you take all my men away from me, and then you say run this other thing too. That’s what makes it tough. [Laughs.]

President Johnson

You’re not going to have any trouble running it now.

Shriver

Well, that’s the problem, see. You’ve got all—all my key men you’re taking.

President Johnson

Well . . . I have—

Shriver

[Unclear] disbanding that Peace Corps [unclear].

President Johnson

I’m not taking them. If I take the time Albert Thomas talks to Jack Valenti and the time that Bill Moyer[s] spends with Sargent Shriver, I get about 33 percent of what’s left.[note 17] Thomas (D-Texas) was the Houston congressman close to Valenti. A few weeks earlier Johnson had jokingly referred to Valenti as Thomas’s “spy right here in the White House.” See the conversation between President Johnson and Albert Thomas, 20 January 1964, Germany and Johnson, eds., The Presidential Recordings, Johnson, vol. 3, January 1964, p. 677. [Shriver chuckles] I figure I’ve got them on a third [of the] time now.

Shriver

Well, listen, Mr. President, I . . . You know I’ll do the best I can—

President Johnson

You tell Eunice [Kennedy Shriver] we—

Shriver

—but you have to keep that Peace Corps. That [unclear]—

President Johnson

You tell Eunice I want to make her your assistant, associate director here.

Shriver

[chuckling] All right, I’ll tell her that.

How’s Lady Bird?

President Johnson

Fine. I’m going up to your dinner. When is it—Wednesday or Thursday?[note 18] Four days later Johnson spoke at the awards dinner for the Joseph P. Kennedy, Jr. Foundation, an organization for which Shriver was executive director.

Shriver

It’s Wednesday if I . . . I’m going to work on that all day tomorrow and all day Monday and Tuesday, so we can get that thing fixed up to be good for you. So if it isn’t right, when you get there, now, it’s your own fault.

President Johnson

All right. Well, I’m not going to speak but three minutes.

Shriver

That’s all, yeah. That’s all.

President Johnson

That’s good. OK.

Now, Moyers, I don’t know where Moyers is. He’s probably off with a woman or drunk.

[to Valenti] See if you can find Moyers around here.

Jack Valenti

[in the office] He went home, sir.

President Johnson

[to Shriver] He went home, Jack Valenti thinks.

Shriver

Is that right? Because he called me after I—

President Johnson

He’s probably—Well, he probably wanted to come see God before he went home, but you weren’t there, I guess. He was out there awhile ago, and I was giving him hell about telling me here for two weeks something, and then he got the willies when you called him and barked at him just once. He went in the basement.

Shriver

[Chuckles] That’s something [unclear]—

President Johnson

Have you ever seen one of those little feisty dogs that come just going—

Shriver

You can trick me a lot, but you can’t trick me on that because Moyers never goes into the basement.

President Johnson

Have you ever seen a little feisty dog just run and bark like hell like he’s going to eat you up, and you just turn and stomp your foot once and watch him run? That’s the way Moyers does when you talk to him.

Shriver

Yeah, I wish that were true.

President Johnson

He stands up and sasses me—

Shriver

He doesn’t do that with anybody.

President Johnson

He stands up and sasses me all day long until you call him in a low, quiet voice. Why, I think he thinks—There’s something to this Kennedy dynasty. By God, when they tell you something, it scares the hell out of people. I don’t know what it is.

Shriver

Well, I tell you: The great thing is, though, I notice who he’s working for.

President Johnson

[laughing] Well, I just borrowed him when you were out of town. You just didn’t happen to be there.

Shriver

[chuckling] Yeah, that . . . You borrowed him. You did a good job on that. [The President chuckles again.]

But I’ll tell you about Jack Vaughn. You know, we’re going to triple that program in Latin America—that Peace Corps program—and I was wondering about him going down there as ambassador because that—

President Johnson

Well, do you know a more important spot in the country than Panama? You know who y’all want to send, don’t you?

Shriver

Who?

President Johnson

This damn fool over at AID.[note 19] The Agency for International Development had responsibility for administering the foreign aid program. This boy that . . .

Shriver

Oh, Frank Coffin.[note 20] Coffin, a former Maine representative who had compiled a strongly liberal record in the House, had stood for governor in 1960 but narrowly lost, after which Maine Senator Edmund Muskie helped secure him a slot as deputy director of AID. The Maine senator continued to hope, however, that Coffin would return to electoral politics, and so spent 1963 attempting to secure him a higher-profile post. That effort appeared to have succeeded when John Kennedy indicated his intention to name Coffin ambassador to Panama, replacing Joseph Farland, who had resigned to run for governor of West Virginia. But although the commission was on his desk as he departed for Dallas, the President neglected to affix his signature, and Johnson refused to make the appointment. Kennedy had had no personal beef with Coffin, but as it turned out, his successor did: In 1961, Coffin, then at AID, had encountered Johnson, then vice president, at a Washington cocktail party. After the two publicly disputed over AID’s legislative strategy, Coffin dismissed Johnson with a blunt “You’re wrong.” Two years later Coffin did not even remember the incident, but Johnson regarded it as a personal slight. Rowland Evans and Robert Novak, Lyndon B. Johnson: The Exercise of Power (New York: New American Library, 1966), pp. 354–55.

President Johnson

Frank Coffin.

Shriver

Yeah.

President Johnson

Because they want to get rid of him at AID. Now, that’s a good way to get rid of him—send him to the Panama Canal, with its problems, wasn’t it?

Shriver

Well, I don’t know. I certainly wouldn’t propose that myself, but . . .

President Johnson

You better be damn lucky, my friend, you didn’t get in AID. That’s where you ought to have been. If you had been patriotic, that’s where you’d have been.

Shriver

That’s . . . I’ll tell you the reason I didn’t go in there: Because if I had gone in there—

President Johnson

I know why you didn’t go in there. I told the President [Kennedy] you said, “Well, I got all those hacks, and I can’t get rid of them. And civil service, and they’ve got every mother-in-law and brother-in-law in the country, and by God, I can’t get rid of them.”

And the President told me that. And I said, “Well, I think that’s right; I think that’s a good reason.” But by God, this one, you can hire them from scratch. Any of them you get. You can start tonight. Just hire your secretary.

Shriver

Yeah.

President Johnson

Because you’re the only man in the program as of now.

Shriver

Yes.

President Johnson

And you’re in it reluctantly.

Shriver

Yes. Well, I’ll tell you: It isn’t that I’m reluctant to do anything that can be helpful; it’s just that I don’t want to do too much and then lose the good things that you’ve got going for you.

I think, you see, the Peace Corps is a good thing as an election issue. But it could have been a lousy thing. But now it’s a good thing, and I don’t want it to suddenly start blowing up right when the campaign gets going. That’s my point. So I just want to have that thing organized.

President Johnson

Well, anybody that can find McNamara can find some other good people, so go get you a bunch of them, and let’s go. Because he’s the best thing I’ve found in government.

Shriver

OK. Well I’ll check—

President Johnson

Except Shriver.

Shriver

I did. When I went out and found him and got him and I brought him back, I kept saying to him, I said, “Now you’ve got to go down there and see the man after all.” So when he came down to Kennedy, he said, “Well, OK, Shriver, I didn’t think much of you, but I’ll work for your brother-in-law.” [Chuckles] So . . .

President Johnson

Well, that’s the best thing you’ve done that I know of.

Shriver

Yeah.

President Johnson

Not even the Peace Corps. I don’t think there’s a man in government as valuable as McNamara.

Shriver

He’s terrific, isn’t he?

President Johnson

He just gives you the answers, and he gives you cooperation, and he’s a can-do fellow, and . . .

Shriver

Yes, he’s great.

President Johnson

He’s got imagination and drive, and he’s working right now. I don’t know where he is, but he’s on the job.

Shriver

Yeah.

How is that Vietna[m]—that [Charles] de Gaulle thing?[note 21] Johnson had spent much time today discussing President de Gaulle’s proposals for neutralization, particularly with Dean Rusk at 4:32 p.m. Isn’t that a . . . that’s really a pain in the—

President Johnson

Well, that—No, that’s all right. If we could neutralize all of it, but hell, they don’t want to neutralize anything but South Vietnam.

Shriver

Yeah.

President Johnson

The goddamned Soviets are not going to let you neutralize North Vietnam, so you’re just whistling through your hat. And the only way to neutralize it is to whip hell out of them.

Shriver

Yeah. Is it going really any better? It looks terrible in the paper.

President Johnson

No, it’s . . . We think it’s going to go a little better.

Shriver

God, it looks terrible.

President Johnson

The last two weeks—

Shriver

[Unclear.]

President Johnson

The last two weeks have been better.

Shriver

The Thais out there are—[note 22] The Presidential Recordings Program revised the following section of text in 2021 for inclusion in The LBJ Telephone Tapes, a project produced by the Miller Center in partnership with the Lyndon B. Johnson Presidential Library to commemorate the library's 50th anniversary.

President Johnson

We were—we weren’t . . . We . . . we’ve assassinated a few people, you know, [Shriver acknowledges] and that always gives us problems. That’s not . . . We went in there and killed them off, and now you see what shape we’re in.[note 23] Johnson was almost certainly referring to the assassination of South Vietnamese Premier Ngô Đinh Diệm and his brother Ngô Đình Nhu in a coup in November 1963. As vice president, Johnson had strongly opposed the decision to oust Diem, whom he termed “a complex figure beset by many problems” when he visited Southeast Asia in 1961. At the time Johnson had argued that “the fundamental decision required of the United States—and time is of the greatest importance—is whether we are to attempt to meet the challenge of Communist expansion now in Southeast Asia by a major effort in support of the forces of freedom in the area or throw in the towel.” Johnson to John Kennedy, 23 May 1961, Files of McGeorge Bundy, Box 18, National Security File, Lyndon B. Johnson Library.

Shriver

I’ve often wondered whether—how smart that was.

President Johnson

That wasn’t smart at all. Wasn’t smart at all.

Shriver

Was it—yeah, that’s that CIA [Central Intelligence Agency] business [unclear].

President Johnson

Well, it just wasn’t smart at all, my friend.

Shriver

Because they’re better off—they [Ngô Đinh Diệm and Ngô Đình Nhu] were better off than what you got now.

President Johnson

I attended one meeting, and they asked me my opinion, and I said, “If you boys want to play cops and robbers, why don’t you get on television, but goddamn it, let’s don’t go to doing it with our allies, because you—take you six months to get back where you are now.”[note 24] For Johnson’s first presidential statements on his view of the Diem matter, see “Memorandum for the Record of Meeting,” 24 November 1963, U.S. Department of State, Foreign Relations of the United States, 1961–1963: Vietnam, August—December 1963 (FRUS), ed. Edward C. Keefer (Washington, DC: GPO, 1991), 4:635–37. For his later reflections on the Diem assassination, see Lyndon Baines Johnson, The Vantage Point: Perspectives on the Presidency, 1963–1969 (New York: Holt, Rinehart, and Winston, 1971), pp. 43–46.

Shriver

You’re right.

President Johnson

But . . . They wanted to play cops and robbers, and they have, so . . .

Anyway, that’s water over the dam.[note 25] End of 2021 revisions. We’ve got—you’re forward-looking, enlightened. You’re going to look to the future. You just start figuring out, get these men on in here and let them listen to the Hellers and the Gordons and the doctors at Harvard—what was his name that I was telling you about awhile ago?

Shriver

Galbraith.

President Johnson

Galbraith. And then you modernize it and moderate it and get it down to where you can stand on your own hind feet and where it’ll stand up for itself. Then get ready to be a witness [before congressional hearings], and let’s start rolling it through. Then I’ll lend you Moyers a little bit.

Shriver

A little bit?

President Johnson

Yeah. A little bit. Now damn right.

Shriver

I need him a lot—

President Johnson

[playfully] No. Let’s—

Shriver

—at the formation stage, see.

President Johnson

Well, he’s been working for you about 100 percent of the time, I’ll tell you that. [Shriver laughs] He hasn’t got any delegates in the field for you. He’s got more judgment than that. And he hasn’t got your name on any tickets because he’s got more brains than that. But he . . . he’s in there swinging every hour, I’ll tell you that.

Shriver

Did you see what I said about the—

President Johnson

Yeah, I saw you eliminated yourself from the race completely.[note 26] See footnote 92 in this chapter. We’ll get you back in it, though.

Shriver

Well, that’s all right, isn’t it?

President Johnson

Yeah, that’s all right.

Shriver

What’d you think of what I said?

President Johnson

Yeah . . . Yeah, that’s all right. That’s all right. I just . . . You just . . . don’t go to nominating any candidates. I think a man [who] runs for vice president is a very foolish man.

Shriver

Yeah.

President Johnson

Man runs away from it is very wise. I wished I’d had run farther away from it than I did.

Shriver

Well, that—

President Johnson

But I never was a candidate for it, I’ll tell you that.

Shriver

That’s right. But that was—

President Johnson

And don’t you ever be a candidate, and don’t let anybody else be a candidate and tell them anybody that runs for it never gets it.

Shriver

That was a great decision, though, that day, when the two of you decided to do that.

President Johnson

Well, you just come on now. We’ve decided this, and I’m with you until the end, and death do us part.

Shriver

Well, there’s not going to be any end. There’s only going to be a—

President Johnson

We’re not going to let anybody divide us, so just bear that in mind. And when everybody else has quit you and gone and through with you, I’ll still be standing there by your side. So let’s get going now.

Shriver

Yes, sir. OK. Thanks very much.

President Johnson

Good-bye.

Shriver

Bye.

Johnson concluded his day by having a casual dinner with Jenkins, speech-writer Horace Busby, and former Texas Governor Price Daniel and his wife.

The next day, Sunday, Johnson had few formal activities. He recorded no calls, but he did keep in close contact with his aides, Secretary Rusk, and several Texas politicians, including Governor Connally. As he had done since becoming President, Johnson attended church services, this time at the National City Christian Church, where the minister asked his audience to “fight cynicism,” “keep your brains active,” and “stay close to God.”[note 27] Washington Post, 3 February 1964. On Monday, Johnson was to test out that advice as the situation in Texas worsened and the Bobby Baker affair became more complicated. In one bit of official business he sent a handwritten letter, in felt-tip marker, to General Nguyen Khanh, the new ruler of South Vietnam. He informed the leader of the coup in Saigon that he was “glad to know that we see eye to eye on the necessity of stepping up the pace of military operations against the Viet Cong.”[note 28] President Johnson to General Nguyen Khanh, 2 February 1964, Box 2, Handwriting File, Lyndon B. Johnson Library.

Johnson received a mixed review in the Sunday press. The New York Times ran a lengthy analysis of his first ten weeks in office. Tom Wicker commended Johnson’s “impressive” performance on domestic affairs, pointing to his sensitive handling of the presidential transition, the reaction to his budget, and his deft management of Congress.[note 29] New York Times, 2 February 1964. Only the looming civil rights bill, Wicker speculated, threatened the President’s domestic standing in the months ahead. Regarding foreign affairs, Max Frankel was less kind. Although he conceded that Johnson did not bear any blame for the flare-ups in Vietnam, Panama, and Cyprus, Frankel also had “little doubt” that world events had “overwhelmed” the administration.[note 30] Ibid. He noted the widespread concern that the President too frequently relied on advice from former colleagues in the Senate, who were too “narrow in perspective” to provide a nuanced view of the proper U.S. role in the world. Frankel admitted, though, that much of the criticism of Johnson came from men still bound emotionally to the late President.[note 31] Ibid. Frankel did not relent in his criticism; in the Monday morning edition of the Times, he scoffed that “the Administration is having almost as much trouble explaining the war in Vietnam as fighting it.” New York Times, 3 February 1964.

Cite as

“Lyndon Johnson and Sargent Shriver on 1 February 1964,” Tape WH6402.02, Citation #1815, Presidential Recordings Digital Edition [Toward the Great Society, vol. 4, ed. Robert David Johnson and Kent B. Germany] (Charlottesville: University of Virginia Press, 2014–). URL: http://prde.upress.virginia.edu/conversations/9040011

Originally published in

Lyndon B. Johnson: Toward the Great Society, February 1, 1964–March 8, 1964, ed. Robert David Johnson and Kent B. Germany, vol. 4 of The Presidential Recordings (New York and London: W. W. Norton and Company, 2007).