[Michael J.] Mike [Mansfield] [D–Montana]?[note 2] Michael J. “Mike” Mansfield was a U.S. senator [D–Montana] from January 1953 to January 1977, and Senate Majority Leader from January 1961 to January 1977. Mike?

Yes, sir.

I’m still thinking about some of these State Department people. Have you got a minute to talk?

Yes, sir.

I wanted to review with you again some of the things I talked to you about out in the hospital.

Mm-hmm.

Because, as you know, folks like [Edwin O.] Reischauer hadn’t—we couldn’t keep him, and some of those things.[note 3] Edwin O. Reischauer was an Asian studies professor at Harvard University, and U.S. ambassador to Japan from 1961 to 1966. But we’re thinking now in the terms of four or five places that are going to open up. First, I want to get your thoughts about anybody that you think I ought to give some consideration to for the [George W.] Ball place when it does open, which would probably be October.[note 4] George W. Ball was a Washington lawyer with an international practice; a wartime associate of Jean Monnet (the advocate of European Union); an adviser to Adlai E. Stevenson II in 1952, 1956, and 1960; U.S. under secretary of state for economic affairs in 1961; U.S. under secretary of state from 1961 to 1966; and a U.S. delegate to the United Nations in 1968.

Mm-hmm.

Do you have anyone that you think of that would be exceptional in that place, get along with [Dean] Rusk, and has a good background, and is a good administrator?[note 5] Dean Rusk was U.S. secretary of state from January 1961 to January 1969.

Well, I was thinking of [Anthony G.] Tony Freeman.[note 6] Anthony G. “Tony” Freeman was a foreign service officer.

He has a health problem.

Oh.

A bad stomach, and he’s—has a problem even where he is.

[Pause.] Uh . . . This fellow, [Edward E.] Ed Rice, in Hong Kong, is a good man, although he may be putting in his 30 years.[note 7] Edward E. “Ed” Rice was consul general to Hong Kong and Macau from February 1964 to September 1967. He’s a minister and consul general over there. He’s made a very big hit with all the congressional groups that have gone through there, because of his know-how and savvy.

[Pause.] Let me ask you what your thought of these various people are.

OK.

[Ellsworth F.] Bunker.[note 8] Ellsworth F. Bunker was U.S. ambassador to Argentina from March 1951 to March 1952; U.S. ambassador to Italy from May 1952 to April 1953; U.S. ambassador to India from November 1956 to March 1961; U.S. ambassador to the Organization of American States from 1964 to 1965; U.S. ambassador to South Vietnam from April 1967 to May 1973; and recipient of the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 1963 and 1967.

Uh . . . Getting along in years.

Yeah.

Good man, though.

[John Sloan] Dickey, of Dartmouth.[note 9] John Sloan Dickey was a State Department official in the 1940s, and president of Dartmouth College from 1945 to 1970. John Dickey.

I don’t know him. I know of him but I don’t know him.

Roswell L. Gilpatric.[note 10] Roswell L. Gilpatric was a Wall Street lawyer; U.S. deputy secretary of defense from January 1961 to January 1964; and chair of the Task Force on Nuclear Proliferation in 1964.

[Pause.] Uh . . . Good man, tight, very close with Defense. Good man, though.

Would the Defense thing hurt him or bar him?

Wouldn’t bar him, but they’d raise questions about it. You’d hear the cry that he was tied too close to the Pentagon. But he’s a good man.

[J.] Irwin Miller.[note 11] J. Irwin Miller was chair of the Cummins Corporation from 1951 to 1977; founder of the Cummins Foundation in 1954; president of the National Council of Churches (NCC) from 1960 to 1963; and chair of the NCC Commission on Religion and Race, which pushed for civil rights legislation.

Well, I just know of him.

He did the study, and he’s on the Ford Foundation board, and he’s on the—he’s a liberal . . . dovish type of fellow, they tell me.

Yeah.

He sent up the East-West Trade Report, you remember.

Did a good job.

[Franklin D.] Frank Murphy.[note 12] Franklin D. “Frank” Murphy was a cardiologist and professor; chancellor of University of California at Los Angeles from 1960 to 1968; and chair and CEO of the Times Mirror Company from 1968 to 1980.

Frank Murphy?

UCLA. He runs the University of California, Southern California.

I’ve just heard of him. I don’t know much about him. He used to be president of a college back east, somewhere, before he went out there, but I don’t know much about him.

James [A.] Perkins.[note 13] James A. Perkins was president of Cornell University from October 1963 to May 1969, and a member of the Carnegie Commission on Higher Education from 1967 to 1973. [Pause.] Cornell.

All I know about him, he’s a good university president.

Paul Nitze.[note 14] Paul H. Nitze was U.S. assistant secretary of defense for international affairs from 1961 to 1963; U.S. secretary of the Navy from November 1963 to June 1967; and U.S. deputy secretary of defense from July 1967 to January 1969.

No. [Pause.] I think you’d get a lot of beef about him like you did when he was sent up to be secretary of the Navy.

What was the beef about?

Oh, some of his prior connections, and the beef was by [J.] Strom Thurmond [R–South Carolina], only I recall, or mostly, and you can . . . that’s negative, considering the source.[note 15] J. Strom Thurmond was a U.S. senator [D–South Carolina] from December 1954 to April 1956 and November 1956 to September 1964, and [R–South Carolina] from September 1964 to January 2003. Now, he’s been in the State Department before. But Paul’s a nice fellow, but he irritates some people. [President Johnson acknowledges.] So it’s just a personality—it isn’t a question of his knowledge.

[R. Sargent] Shriver.[note 16] R. Sargent Shriver was director of the Peace Corps from March 1961 to February 1966, and director of the Office of Economic Opportunity from October 1964 to March 1968.

What does he know about foreign affairs?

Well, they think he’s traveled widely, that he’s had very effective results with his Peace Corps, that he knows most of the heads of state around the world. He’s been in every continent a good deal and universally acclaimed. They all like him very highly, according to—

Well, he might be a good man for it, then.

He’s pretty . . . he’s pretty appealing to the young crowd, and to the dovish crowd, and to the—he’s a peace man, and he’s for a new policy on China, and he’s for the—strong for the Alliance for Progress.[note 17] President John F. Kennedy had created the Alliance for Progress to encourage political and economic reform in Latin America. Liberals had criticized President Johnson for not subsequently emphasizing the program. McGeorge Bundy to President Johnson, 14 April 1964, 6:03 p.m., in The Presidential Recordings, Lyndon B. Johnson: Toward the Great Society, vol. 6, February 1, 1964 – May 31, 1964, ed. Guian A. McKee (New York: W. W. Norton, 2007), 14–31; Bundy to Johnson, 21 April 1964, in ibid., 124–26. And he’s been very . . . worried about the militarists, and he’s taken kind of the other side. They think he ought to be balanced with somebody like Bunker or [David K. E.] Bruce, or somebody like that.[note 18] David K. E. Bruce was U.S. ambassador to France from May 1949 to March 1952; U.S. under secretary of state from 1952 to 1953; U.S. ambassador to Germany from April 1957 to October 1959; U.S. ambassador to the United Kingdom from March 1961 to March 1969; and chief of the U.S. liaison office to the People’s Republic of China from May 1973 to September 1974. Kind of, you know, an older man and a younger man, but they think we need to be bringing in some new blood from the days of [Robert A.] Lovett, and Bruce, and Arthur [H.] Dean, and Adlai [E.] Stevenson [II], [Mansfield acknowledges] and folks of that type.[note 19] Robert A. Lovett was a former U.S. secretary of state and secretary of defense; special counselor to the president from 1961 to 1963; and a member of the Executive Committee of the National Security Council in October 1962. Arthur H. Dean was chair of the U.S. delegation at the Conference on the Discontinuance of Nuclear Weapons Tests in Geneva from 1961 to 1962; chair of the U.S. delegation at the Eighteen-Nation Disarmament Committee in Geneva in 1962; a senior partner at Sullivan and Cromwell; and an adviser to Lyndon Johnson. Adlai E. Stevenson II was the Democratic governor of Illinois from January 1949 to January 1953; the Democratic U.S. presidential nominee in 1952 and 1956; and U.S. ambassador to the United Nations from January 1961 until his death in July 1965. And we got to bring them in somewhere.

OK.

And they say he’s attractive, and being a Kennedy would probably keep him—would not subject him to any personal criticism from them, at least.

That’s right. If he has the ability. He’s unproven in that field. He can—you can visit heads of state, but that doesn’t make you competent to deal in foreign affairs. Personally, I think he can go over well. I wouldn’t anticipate much trouble down here. The only questions that would be raised as to his qualifications.

He doesn’t seem to have gotten in any trouble. Oh, once in a while a Peace Corps fellow does something wrong. But it seems in the Dominican Republic, all these places where his people are, his reports have been very good, and they think he’s done a pretty good job with them and the regular old hands at State look upon him with some favor. What do you think of [Foy D.] Kohler?[note 20] Foy D. Kohler was U.S. assistant secretary of state for European and Canadian affairs from 1959 to September 1962, and U.S. ambassador to the Soviet Union from September 1962 to November 1966.

No. I don’t know him too much, but that shop that he ran in Moscow, he wasn’t there. We thought it was the most ill-run embassy we visited on the trip last November and December. He was home on vacation or something, and perhaps it’s being unfair to apply to him, but you may recall that in his background, too, he was arrested once in Arlington for drunk driving at night. That wasn’t brought up when he was sent to Moscow. It may be brought up, though, by somebody in the meantime, especially as the election year comes to a climax. [Pause.] Good man, though, I understand.

They are thinking of him down the road not for the top place but more or less for some of the other places, administrative. They say that at the 50ish age group, that he is the most knowledgeable, and the ablest assistant secretary that they’ve had, and the ablest administrator to run the department from the third or fourth or fifth job.

Mm-hmm. Well, this fellow Crockett is as good an administrator as you’ll ever find, I think.

But the liberals are running him out. The Kennedy-ites, the Abba [P.] Schwartzes, and—[note 21] Abba P. Schwartz was U.S. assistant secretary of state for security and consular affairs from October 1962 to March 1966.

I see.

They . . . They—He wants to leave. I think he’s one of the best men they got.

Yeah.

But they just chew at him all the time in the New York Post crowd, and the Rowland Evans [Jr.], Drew Pearson, [Robert F.] Bobby Kennedy [D–New York], [Edward M.] Teddy Kennedy [D–Massachusetts], refugees.[note 22] Rowland Evans Jr. was a prominent syndicated columnist. Robert F. “Bobby” Kennedy was U.S. attorney general from January 1961 to September 1964, and a U.S. senator [D–New York] from January 1965 until his assassination in June 1968. Edward M. “Teddy” Kennedy was a U.S. senator [D–Massachusetts] from November 1962 until his death on 25 August 2009, and Senate Democratic Whip from January 1969 to January 1971. He has just been over wringing his hands. They dislike him because he gets along with the Congress. I think [John J.] Rooney [D–New York]—he went on a trip or two with Rooney and then they don’t like Rooney.[note 23] John J. Rooney was a U.S. representative [D–New York] from June 1944 to December 1974.

Mm-hmm.

Although I think we ought to keep him, he’s told me that he just cannot live with it.

Yeah, but he’s a very good man.

[Cyrus R.] Cy Vance.[note 24] Cyrus R. “Cy” Vance was secretary of the U.S. Army from 1962 to 1963; U.S. deputy secretary of defense from 1964 to 1967; special representative of the president to Cyprus in 1967 and to Korea in 1968; and U.S. negotiator at the Paris Peace Talks on Vietnam from 1968 to 1969.

[Pause.] Well, he’s doing a very good job, with [Robert S. “Bob”] McNamara.[note 25] Robert S. “Bob” McNamara was president of Ford Motor Company from November 1960 to January 1961; U.S. secretary of defense from January 1961 to March 1968; and president of the World Bank from April 1968 to July 1981.

He’s leaving there. He may not—they don’t think anything could get him to stay because he’s been gone six years in his law firm, and he’s lost his identification, and he’s afraid that he doesn’t go back.

Mm-hmm. Well, I guess he’d be all right.

Now, if you had to name one of those for under secretary, who would it be? Bunker, Dickey, Gilpatric, Miller, Murphy, Nitze, Shriver, Vance, Perkins, Kohler . . . Bruce. Now, Bruce is not available, and we don’t think Bunker’s available—both of them on account of their age. We don’t know that anybody else is available, but . . .

I would say Gilpatric.

Do you think [John L.] McClellan [D–Arkansas]—[note 26] John L. McClellan was a U.S. senator [D–Arkansas] from January 1943 to November 1977; chair of the Senate Government Operations Committee from 1949 to 1953 and 1955 to 1972; chair of the Senate Appropriations Committee from 1972 to 1977; and chief sponsor of the Select Committee on Improper Activities in the Labor and Management Field.

Oh, yeah. Now, that’s a danger, that’s a danger.

—and the [unclear]?

Well, probably Shriver.

Wouldn’t they think he’s lightweight for the second job?

Yes, but you haven’t got a very impressive list there to choose from.

Well, give me one. [Laughs.]

Frank Malloy.

They say he’s against what we’re doing in Vietnam, that he would have to turn it down on that list, and they don’t think he is broad enough to be the top man [to] the Secretary of State. [Mansfield acknowledges throughout.] I’ve brought into that. They said they asked him to go to Vietnam as an ambassador [Mansfield acknowledges] , and he told them he just couldn’t pass on policy matters that he didn’t believe in.

Mm-hmm. Well—

I don’t know whether the Secretary told me that, or George Ball. Somebody told me that.

Well, at least that has the earmarks of honesty and candor.

Yes, it does, yes it—and he has that. He wrote my report for me. He—

I was going to say, you knew him in ‘61. [speaking over President Johnson] You had a chance to size him up.

Yes, I know him. I know him, and I like him. I believe—I don’t believe he’s tough enough to be an under secretary or the Secretary of State at this stage of the game. I think he might be in time, but he’s quiet, and unassuming, and nice, and I don’t—this is a goddamn jungle over there. It’s the worst department in the government, in my judgment.

Well, that’s true. But—

And this—what we need is McNamara in there. We just—they just need to get rid of about a third of them. It’s the damnedest spying job you ever saw. And we got another Russian today that [J. Edgar] Hoover’s picked up.[note 27] J. Edgar Hoover was director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) from 1924 until his death on 2 May 1972. [Mansfield acknowledges.] And it’s just a shame, Mike. You sure ought to warn your senators to be careful, too.

Mm-hmm. Well, some of them, it’s kind of hard to.

Yes, it is. But you can tell some of them—the speeches. You can see who they’re seeing them. This is the third secretary today that we’re going to have to try to get him to defect, or, we’re debating it down here now. The softies over there want to let him go back without mentioning anything. [Mansfield acknoweldges throughout.] The Hooverites think you ought to expose it, and let the country know it, and let the Russians know it, and let everybody else know it; we’re not going to tolerate it. He’s paid $5[000] or $6,000 for atomic bomb scientific stuff, things of that kind. Space material. And it just—they put them in as spies, and there’s not a day, Mike, that two or three of them are not messing with the Hill. And particularly with your senators. You got 15, 20 senators there of our more liberal variety, that they’re eating lunch with, that they’re going to see, whose administrative assistants are going out with them, and things of that kind. Not yours, but others, and particularly some of your committee people down there. You—[Pat M.] Holt’s just wanting to go to Cuba.[note 28] Pat M. Holt was a Latin Affairs expert and member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee from 1950 to 1977. I told them to give him a passport. I’m not going to deny anybody anything he wants to. They called [J. William] Fulbright [D–Arkansas] about it, and Fulbright apparently didn’t know about it.[note 29] J. William “Bill” Fulbright was a U.S. senator [D–Arkansas] from January 1945 to December 1974, and chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee from January 1959 to December 1974. But they’ve—some of your boys have been out 15 to 20 times since the 1st of January with what we consider the top agents of the Soviet Union, meeting in cafes at different times. Now, you can’t convict a man like that, and you don’t want to, but we just want to be aware of it.

Yeah.

And it’s something we got to [unclear].

Yeah.

You don’t know anybody in the Senate—nobody’d leave the Senate for it, I’m sure. We had a bunch of folks that wanted to go into things like this like [Chester B.] Bowles.[note 30] Chester B. Bowles was a U.S. representative [D–Connecticut] from January 1959 to January 1961; U.S. under secretary of state from January to December 1961; and U.S. ambassador to India from October 1951 to March 1953 and July 1963 to April 1969. He left the Congress. [Mansfield acknowledges.] But, incidentally, Bowles is about ready to resign if we give Pakistan the 8 million spare parts that we’ve committed to. We’ve given India a billion and a half this year, and we think we ought to give Pakistan—we furnished them the planes and now they can’t use the planes because they haven’t got a part, and our withdrawing, we think it’s pretty bad. We did withdraw aid to both of them during the war, but now we’ve restored it to both, and India’s getting hurried, and India’s getting help from the Soviet, too, and the question is what do we do about Pakistan. Do you have any feeling on that?

Well, I think if you got the commitment, you got to go ahead with it.

And—well, Bowles has made one during the war. He says that he personally committed us against it.

He can’t do that.

Right, of course he can’t, but he has. And he may resign, so that gives me a problem there.

Well, if he does, there’s nothing you can do about it.

What would you think about [Charles E.] Bohlen for Moscow?[note 31] Charles E. Bohlen was one of the two top Russian specialists in the State Department; a special adviser to the president from 1961 to 1962; and U.S. ambassador to France from October 1962 to February 1968.

Bohlen?

Yeah.

Didn’t he get in some trouble there before?

I don’t know. Not that I knew of.

I guess not. No, that was Keenan—[George F.] Kennan.[note 32] George F. Kennan was a historian; the father of containment policy during the Cold War; chief of the policy planning staff at the State Department from 1947 to 1949; U.S. ambassador to the Soviet Union from May to December 1952; and U.S. ambassador to Yugoslavia from May 1961 to July 1963.

Yeah. Yeah, Kennan’s been in trouble every place he’s been. He was in trouble with Yugoslavia. He’s been—

Bohlen would be a good one, I think.

I thought we might freshen things up a little bit by—if Kohler came in here to do one of the lower jobs. He’s been there about his length of time. We might move Bohlen if he’d do it; they don’t think he will. But we might move Bohlen to Moscow and then move somebody else into Paris. [Mansfield acknowledges.] Had you ever thought about moving [Henry Cabot] Lodge [Jr.] into Paris?[note 33] Henry Cabot Lodge Jr. was the Republican vice presidential nominee in 1960; U.S. ambassador to South Vietnam from August 1963 to June 1964 and August 1965 to April 1967; and U.S. ambassador to West Germany from May 1968 to January 1969.

[Pause.] Uh, no . . .

They can’t do much while [Charles] de Gaulle’s feeling as he does.[note 34] Charles de Gaulle was president of France from January 1958 to April 1969. That might be a good place. He speaks French fluently, and he’s spent a good deal of time at the United Nations, and a good deal out there now, and we might—if we could find the proper man for Vietnam. What would you think about [William C.] Westmoreland to succeed Lodge in Vietnam?[note 35] Gen. William C. Westmoreland, often referred to as “Westy,” was commander of the U.S. Military Assistance Command, Vietnam (MACV) from 1964 to 1968, and chief of staff of the U.S. Army from 1968 to 1972. Would you go through the ceiling?

Mmm . . . No, I wouldn’t, but you’d be subject to a lot of criticism for putting a military man in that position.

Well, we had [Maxwell D.] Taylor in it.[note 36] Gen. Maxwell D. “Max” Taylor was a military representative of the president from 1961 to 1962; chair of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff from October 1962 to July 1964; and U.S. ambassador to South Vietnam from July 1964 to July 1965.

I know, but—

They tell me that they believe he’s the best ambassador we have, and that he is the toughest on the pacification stuff.

Well, he impressed me a lot more than Lodge did.

That’s what everybody goes out there comes back and tells me. Now, that’s what I’m asking, [Mansfield attempts to interject] and he’s about ready to be moved, you see, and we’re going to lose him.

Mm-hmm. But the situation is different now than when Taylor was there. It’s . . . It’s worth considering. [Pause.] He’s an awfully good man—awfully good man.

Do you think of anybody else?

No, sir. If I do, I’ll pass it on.

Congratulations on your rent supplement [funding].[note 37] On this day, the Senate had passed a $14 billion spending bill. Although the bill provided funds for a wide range of programs, President Johnson focused on the Rent Supplement Program, something he had been fighting for as an antidote to civil disorders. Marjorie Hunter, “Big Spending Bill Passed by Senate,” New York Times, 11 August 1966.

Oh, well, we were lucky.

Now, Mike, you know we’re going to destroy ourselves with this interparty politicking, don’t you?

Yes, sir.

Bobby [Kennedy] has got [Abraham A. “Abe”] Ribicoff [D–Connecticut] off now, and he’s launching a hearing next week, and he wanted [Robert C. “Bob”] Weaver to come testify.[note 38] Abraham A. “Abe” Ribicoff was a U.S. senator [D–Connecticut] from January 1963 to January 1981, and a member of the Finance Committee. Robert C. “Bob” Weaver was a member of Franklin D. Roosevelt’s Black Cabinet in 1934; director of the Housing and Home Finance Agency from 1961 to 1965; and the first U.S. secretary of the Department of Housing and Urban Development from January 1966 to December 1968. And I had Ribicoff down, and Ribicoff’s kind of sour on things since he was in the Cabinet.[note 39] Senator Ribicoff had served as Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare under President Kennedy before running for the Senate in 1962. And he’s . . . I had him down to talk to him and listen to his ideas. He’s got this [Joseph W.] Joe Alsop–Bobby Kennedy–Rowland Evans idea of a 100 billion-dollar program.[note 40] Joseph W. “Joe” Alsop was a prominent Washington journalist and syndicated columnist, and the brother of journalist Stewart J. O. Alsop. President Johnson referred to his general fears about a large-scale urban aid program that Kennedy and other liberals might propose in order to upstage him on both Civil Rights and the War on Poverty. At the November 1965 White House Conference on Civil Rights, A. Philip Randolph had proposed a $100 billion Freedom Budget to eliminate ghettos throughout U.S. cities, and Johnson appears to have generalized this figure and assumed Kennedy’s sponsorship of it. Kennedy would, in fact, endorse the $185 billion completed version of the Freedom Budget later in the year, but had not publically done so as of August 1966. See also Conversation WH6608-02-10520 on this theme. “Randolph Says: ‘Freedom Budget’ May End Poverty,” Chicago Defender, 5 November 1966; John D’Emilio, Lost Prophet: The Life and Times of Bayard Rustin (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2003), 370–79, 423–24; Thomas J. Sugrue, Sweet Land of Liberty: The Forgotten Struggle for Civil Rights in the North (New York: Random House, 2008), 375–77. Alsop had recently written a glowing portrait of Kennedy, which suggested that many Democrats preferred the New York senator over the President, but neither he nor Rowland Evans had endorsed the Freedom Budget. Evans’s inclusion in this list may have been prompted by the day’s “Inside Report” column, which pointed out President Johnson’s extensive effort to mitigate both immediate and long-term urban problems in the wake of the summer’s riots. Rowland Evans and Robert Novak, “Inside Report: LBJ and the Cities,” Washington Post, 10 August 1966. Martin Luther King [Jr.]’s announced it in Chicago, for the cities . . . 10 billion, 10 years.[note 41] Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was a leader in the civil rights movement; pastor of the Dexter Avenue Baptist Church in Montgomery, Alabama, from 1954 to 1960; organizer of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC) in 1957; co-pastor (with his father) of the Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, Georgia, from 1960 until his assassination on 4 April 1968; and recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize in 1964. King would endorse the final version of the Freedom Budget, but it is not clear that he endorsed it specifically during his 1966 antipoverty and organizing campaign in Chicago. Johnson may be referring to a speech King gave on 8 August at the Southern Christian Leadership convention in Jackson, Mississippi, in which he announced that he would press for a guaranteed annual income for all Americans. The lead in the New York Times article about the conference noted that “Senator Edward M. Kennedy and the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. called tonight for billions of dollars in Federal spending for American Negroes.” This language—and Johnson read the leading papers on a daily basis—suggests how Johnson might have moved from the Freedom Budget specifics to a general view of his opponents’ agenda. Gene Roberts, “Dr. King Proposes Annual Incomes,” New York Times, 9 August 1966; “King Joins $185 Billion Freedom Budget Lobby,” Chicago Defender, 6 December 1966. We recommended 2 billion to get it started over the next 5, 6 years. [Edmund S.] Muskie [D–Maine] just wouldn’t take it, and he finally said he’d take 900 million for 3 years.[note 42] Edmund S. Muskie was a U.S. senator [D–Maine] from January 1959 to May 1980, and Hubert H. Humphrey Jr.‘s U.S. vice presidential running mate in 1968.

You’ll have trouble with that, Mr. President.

And so we went along with Muskie. I told him to get along and do what he said. I made my boys go up. And [Joseph A. “Joe”] Califano [Jr.] listened to him, and said that . . . he would recommend that we accept Muskie’s suggestion and cut it.[note 43] Joseph A. “Joe” Califano Jr. was special assistant to the president from July 1965 to January 1969. So we’ve got in and we had to run it through the HUD crowd, but we made it stand up. Now, then, they’ve cancelled out Weaver and them, and they’re going to start off with Bobby [Kennedy], and [Joseph S.] Joe Clark [Jr.] [D–Pennsylvania], and William Fitts Ryan [D–New York], and they’re not going to let the administration testify till they’ve made all the headlines in three or four days, which is rather rough on the party in power and on the administration.[note 44] Joseph S. Clark Jr. was the Democratic mayor of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, from January 1952 to January 1956, and a U.S. senator [D–Pennsylvania] from January 1957 to January 1969. William Fitts Ryan was a U.S. representative [D–New York] from January 1961 to September 1972. Although Senators Clark and Kennedy would both testify on 15 August, the first day of the hearings, Secretary Weaver and Sargent Shriver both testified on the second day. Representative Ryan of New York, who like Senator Clark was an urban liberal critic of the Johnson administration, did not testify. Senate Subcommittee on Executive Reorganization of the Committee on Government Operations, Federal Role in Urban Affairs, Part 1, 89th Cong., 2nd sess., 15–16 August 1966, pp. III, errata sheet. Now, normally, they have to come present the bill, make the case.

[softly] Who is responsible for this?

Ribicoff, and Bobby is directing it. Just kind of like he did the labor thing. It’s . . . the labor bill. And of course, he didn’t get by with that; you and [Everett M.] Dirksen [R–Illinois] stopped that.[note 45] Everett M. Dirksen was a U.S. senator [R–Illinois] from January 1951 until his death in September 1969, and Senate Minority Leader from January 1959 to September 1969. But that’s what’s happening. Now, we’re going to have all kinds of rioting, and this is going to encourage them, and we’ve got a tinder box here in the District [of Columbia]. I think that you and Dirksen ought to think about whether you think the Senate will take 10 years at 10 billion a year.

They will not.

And I think that you and Dirksen ought to sit down and talk to [John L.] McClellan [D–Arkansas] and the ranking member of Government Operations.[note 46] John L. McClellan was a U.S. senator [D–Arkansas] from January 1943 to November 1977; chair of the Senate Government Operations Committee from 1949 to 1953 and 1955 to 1972; chair of the Senate Appropriations Committee from 1972 to 1977; and chief sponsor of the Select Committee on Improper Activities in the Labor and Management Field. Senator Karl E. Mundt of South Dakota served as the ranking Republican member of the committee. And this committee has no jurisdiction in the world to report a damn thing. It—All it’s going to do is stir it up. It’s an oversight committee.

Yeah.

And I think that if you’ve got to stir up something, you ought to do it in January, because you’re just going to beat hell out of people like [Lee W.] Metcalf [D–Montana] and these boys in Omaha, Nebraska, that are in Congress, and five from Iowa, with all this damn fool $100 billion Negro stuff.[note 47] Lee W. Metcalf was a U.S. representative [D–Montana] from January 1953 to January 1961; a U.S. senator [D–Montana] from January 1961 to January 1978; and acting president pro tempore of the U.S. Senate from June 1963 to January 1978.

Yeah.

They just cannot survive in those little rural states. And Bobby’s elected, but he ran a million and half behind me in New York. And they just—you see what happened in Arkansas yesterday.[note 48] The day before, on 9 August, James Johnson, an archsegregationist critic of the Johnson administration, had won the Democratic nomination for Arkansas governor. He lost in September’s general election to Republican Winthrop Rockefeller.

Yeah.

And I don’t think we can stand this publicity. I think that [Richard J. “Dick”] Daley’s called me half a dozen times, and he said if you don’t stop Bobby and them here it’s just going to ruin me.[note 49] Richard J. “Dick” Daley was the Democratic mayor of Chicago, Illinois, from April 1955 to December 1976. He’s got all the Poles mad, and got all the Germans mad, got all the Italians mad, and [Henry W.] Maier from Milwaukee was in this morning, said he was sitting on a tinder box.[note 50] Henry W. Maier was the Democratic mayor of Miwaukee, Wisconsin, from 1960 to 1988. He’s got 100,000 Negroes, and the Poles, and the Germans, and everything are fighting each other. And we’re stirring it up, up there, and Teddy went down to Jackson, Mississippi, and said, “If you can spend 2 billion [dollars] on the soldiers in Vietnam, you ought to spend 2 billion [dollars] on the Negroes.”[note 51] President Johnson referred to Senator Edward Kennedy’s 8 August speech in Jackson, Mississippi, to the Southern Christian Leadership Conference convention. He specifically stated, “We are spending $2 billion a month to defend the freedom of 14 million people in South Vietnam, why shouldn’t we make the same kind of effort for the 20 million people of the Negro race right here in America whose freedom and future is also at stake.” He also noted that this should be done not just for the economy or to stop riots but “because they are right and the decent and moral things to do.” Roberts, “Dr. King Proposes Annual Incomes,” New York Times, 9 August 1966; Jack Nelson, “Dr. King Says Marches Create Crisis for Whites,“ Los Angeles Times, 9 August 1966; “Edward Kennedy Urges Program Costing Billions to Help Negroes,” Washington Post, 9 August 1966. And [it is] the sheerest demagoguery, saying that “if you can spend 24 billion [dollars] a year on 16 million Vietnamese, 14 million, [then] you can spend that much on 20 million good Negro Americans.” Well—

[faintly] That’s terrible.

—you could turn it by saying if you can spend that much to support 300,000 men in the Army out there, and you could have the Army and the Negroes fighting here, which one are you going to support?[note 52] This comment reflects Johnson’s belief, expressed above, that the actions of the Kennedys, Ribicoff, King, and others would exacerbate tensions in the U.S. and lead to additional riots. But we don’t want to do that. But I think before it gets started next week with its hearings—they notified us this morning that they were going to start off, and that we wouldn’t be allowed to testify with Weaver and [Nicholas] Nick Katzenbach.[note 53] Nicholas “Nick” Katzenbach was U.S. assistant attorney general from 1961 to 1962; U.S. deputy attorney general from April 1962 to January 1965; acting U.S. attorney general from September 1964 to January 1965; U.S. attorney general from February 1965 to October 1966; and U.S. under secretary of state from October 1966 to January 1969. Now, Nick’s the soundest man we’ve got. He’s for the Negro, but he’s got sense and he doesn’t go too far. And he ought to be the lawyer. I’ve designated him as the lawyer for the administration on these hearings. I wish they didn’t have them. I don’t know what—they can’t get us one vote. All they can do is hurt us. But what can you do about it?

I’ll talk to Dirksen.

Talk to Dirksen, then [speaking over Mansfield] you all talk?

[Unclear] that you can’t get that—

Sir?

This is outrageous what they want. [Unclear.]

Well, you talk to Dirksen, and y’all talk to McClellan, and [Karl E.] Mundt [R–South Dakota], whoever it is, and then see if you can’t call in Ribicoff and say, “What are these hearings we’re hearing about?”[note 54] Karl E. Mundt was a U.S. senator [R–South Dakota] from December 1948 to January 1973. Don’t . . . Don’t quote me, but just inquire and then say, “Can’t we wait on those until after the election?”

We’ll do our best. He’s a tough customer, though.

If you think of any other names, don’t repeat this to a human, but this is what I’m working on. And I don’t know everybody in these fields. And I’ve thought of everybody that I know. I’ve talked to [J. William] Fulbright [D–Arkansas]; he hasn’t made any suggestions.[note 55] J. William “Bill” Fulbright was a U.S. senator [D–Arkansas] from January 1945 to December 1974, and chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee from January 1959 to December 1974. I’m afraid I’ll select somebody, and there’ll be something wrong with him.

Well—

Why—but—

[Unclear] the best you can.

Thank you, Mike.

OK, Mr. President.